Um…so that’d be a “no” then?
Um, so that’d be a “no” then?
You’re right, Otto. What I meant to say was that if the Canadians let their military go to hell that it’ll be the Somalis helping them. Silly me.
Thank you for being so obtuse and bringing ne back to my senses.
Airman I know they’re not anywhere near where they should be, but again the US would be assigning assets to protect the area of Canada even if we weren’t here. I mean would the naval exercises in the northern Atlantic and Pacific stop if Canada was gone? Would there not be a northern radar line? Would there not be an awareness of what was going on in airspace Canada use to exist under? Of course there would. Of course you’d be paying for it.
The fact that Canada could fill that role for you through in its own self interest points to the cost saving the US could experience if we did do it to the degree I’d like.
We had about 120,000 active personnel in the 1960’s. The height of the cold war when there was a direct threat to Canada. In 1991 we fielded about 4,500. In 2003 we could barely scrap together 2,000 for Afghanistan. Remember there has been serious talk about turning the Canadian military into a global peacekeeping force. A role that is not anything like a war making force. That, in my opinion, is due to the “end of history” thinking from the 1990’s. The 2000’s have woken a bunch of people up, though whether enough have started to pay attention is questionable.
I guess that I don’t understand what you want from Canada. Canada has ships (5, not 1 from what I remember) patrolling the Gulf region and I remember some US government type saying that was a more significant contribution than all but a handful of countries.
There is also the example of WW II where Canada joined the fight almost from the very begining when their ties to the Commonwealth demanded it. The US didn’t get involved until they were attacked.
Oh, and in general Canada does care about the world at large, perhaps the main difference is that Canada doesn’t feel that a massive military is the best way to help.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that the Liberal government of Canada has neglected the military too much. Again, what do you expect of Canada?
Really, this is one of the most idiotic post I have ever read. The OP has to ask himself several questions:
Who has the military capacity to launch an invasion on Canada?
Of those that are capable, who wants to invade Canada?
I am not a military expert but I am pretty sure the answer is no one.
Morepver, to fight terrorism you don’t need an army you need the police, international cooperation, inteligence, etc. Using an army to hunt terrorists is like killing insects with a Big Bertha.
To protect your fishing resources (that nasty episode with Spain a couple of years ago come to my mind) you don’t need the army, you need (as someone already mentioned) the coast guard.-
There is more to defending a country sovereignity than having a powerfull militar force, my country, (Argentina), is a textbook case. Every important decission that my goverment makes has to be approved by the IMF. No country threatens our borders, but are we truly independent? I think not.
Finally the only thing that makes sense in this op is the fact that Canada has several international compromises (like NATO), if they are unable to fullfill those compromises, the Op may have a point. Incidentally does the Nato Treaty deal with this issue?
I say: Kick Adrienne Clarkson out on her tuches. Abolish the position. It’s useless.
Take the 19 100 000 yearly budget.
Take her 5 300 000 circumpolar trip caviar budget.
Take the $ 90 000 carpets she buys for the Queen.
Add that all up together and let’s buy us some GIDDYUP!
I , too, believe we need to keep our military. My perceived threats, however, happen to be different than the ones Airman seems to think I have, MUCH different.
And frankly, trading in **Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Governor General of Canada ** is well worth it, if I can tell people like Airman (with all due respect) to shut the fuck up.
If you think that the swiss have no military then you are high. They maintain their strict (up until their entry into the UN as a full member recently) neutrality by having a well trained and well equiped army. EVERYONE (male) in the country is conscripted and does a few years in the Army or Air Force. They are then let out into the reserves (as in has an assault rifle in the house reserves) until they are 34. So you’ve got turbulence (50 years ago) but a big army/reserves.
While Costa Rica has no standing army, they do have a National Guard, which has fought engagements with Nicaragua. And that is the extent of the turbulence in the region. Nothing much happens to the south (gotta protect the canal.)
AND not having a military does impact your relations with the United States, among others. Anecdote An International Relations prof. of mine (ex State Dept.) once mentioned that every year Canada sends an envoy to the US, and complains about acid rain from the Rust Belt effecting Canadian forests. And every year the US points out that we’re the ones with the nuclear weapons.
Now, I’m sure it’s not as blatant as that, but if you feel that Canada is being taken for granted now, imagine what it will be like 10 years from now when the military you do have (and it’s apparently in bad shape now) is even worse.
C
More important, is what kind of paint it is. If it’s an oil based paint, and you use latex over it, the latex will just peel off.
latex over latex, or oil over oil shouldn’t be a problem. On interior work I usually like to give it the a light once over with sandpaper before repainting. Just score it a little and the paint sets better.
Ooops, so sorry.
What I meant to say was… Fuck Canada!
Fucking Cowards, and layabouts. You’ll regret this when the Eskimos begin their human wave attacks.
Actually, I think this is very appropriate. A couple of dabs and the sea-kings will look like new! 
Isn’t it clear? That you carry your share of the load internationally. That you devote about as much resources and manpower per capita as the rest of the industrial democracies. What real threat is there to Britain’s borders, or Italy’s, or Australia’s? None, yet when the world community has to act as policemen, they carry their share of the burden. The only one that doesn’t is Canada.
You demand that the topic be only about internal self-defense and not the rest of the world, do you? Try this, then. With global warming, the Northwest Passage is about to become navigable by the world’s commercial fleets and navies. If anyone you didn’t like were to try to sail it, even with a single ship, what could you do to stop it? Hell, would you even know?
You’re one of the half-dozen most powerful economies in the world, yet you indulge only in token efforts that help you pretend you’re doing something. WW2 was a hell of a long time ago, pal - if you have to go back that far to find an example of Canada doing its part, that should help underscore the problem you have today. Grey, I don’t know how to make it any clearer for you than to point out the tokenism of the efforts you point to. Look at the big picture and say Canada plays a role in the world commensurate with its capabilities, or even commensurate with its fellow world-community members. You can’t.
But trading in your Governor General for a new helicopter would be a good start. Gotta give you credit for that one.
Can I jump in and ask two questions here?
-
How are we defining “industrial democracies?” Is Finland an industrial democracy? Liechtenstein? How about Costa Rica, which hardly spends anything on its military? Don’t all countries have industry, or are we talking about the “top ten” GDP countries or something?
-
How far are we lagging behind compared to other “industrial democracies” - especially aside from the U.S.?
Hey here’s a big Fuck you to that! That Massacre in Rowanda was almost prevented Under a Peacekeeping force lead by Canadians. Dallier’s plan would have worked had the United States not dragged its heals Delayed resolutions in the UN and prevented any further build up from occuring. So while the US shuffled and looked away millions died.
Because your military can wipe out third world dictatorships that threaten American interests you act as if you saved the fucking world… Yet when it comes to incidents like Rowanda and now Hati you sit back and let people die because you don’t stand to profit politically from it. Fucking hypocrits.
You dismiss what we do and you have no fucking clue do you? How many UN peace keeping operations have the US joined in… how many Has Canada? What percentage of our forces have we committed to missions around the world.
Better yet how many of these had any bearing on National self interest Fuck wad.
Get off your high horse. You want to be the big boy on the block fine. You want to dictate your own terms fine… Just to expect everyone else to be as gung ho when it comes to helping you fufill your self interest… you are big enough to do it on your own.
First off,
/respect too all the American soldiers out there doing their duty. I may not respect the administration, but I respect the men and women out there with their necks on the line. It takes a lot of heart and a lot of guts to do what you do, for everyone’s freedom.
I’m Canadian. I live near CFB Shilo, where the German forces were deployed for several years. I know a lot of folks in the military, and my cousin is currently enrolled at Kingston military college. I’ll agree. More money needs to be spent…badly. And I don’t mind paying my fair share for it. However, there are some points I’ll bring up.
a) Our men/women are amazingly well trained. Amazingly well. We’ve got the world’s best snipers, and some of the bravest air force in the world (I wouldn’t get in a damned sea-king.)
b) Our equipment is a joke. As we laugh about it, the West Edmonton Mall has half our naval force (submarine ride, for folks who don’t know.) This is where a portion of the money needs to be spent.
c) Our men/women in the Forces need to be paid better, and have better facilities at the bases. It’s a scary, dirty, risky, tough job, and they should be compensated for it. Take some of the money friggin professional athletes are making and give it to real heroes.
d) Canada and the US have a very, very deep relationship. Someone compared us to a 5 year old following his brother to the mall. Well, this five year old’s got a really big closet full of goodies that he willingly shares, knowing that his older brother cares enough about him to help him out if he’s getting picked on. Personally, I think if more countries in the world had the same trust level that we do, the world would be a better place.
I’d type more, but I just put in a 14 hour day at work. I need some sleep 
Perhaps someone with more military knowledge than I have can answer this question:
It seems to me, and I freely admit I’m approaching this from more a theoretical perspective than a purely military one, that one of the better ways to prevent yourself from coming under attack is to have a military large enough to dissuade most (if not, you hope, all) from attacking you. That’s why we aren’t at war with North Korea right now, and they’ve outwardly stated IIRC that they have those same WMDs Bush et al. swore Iraq had. However, North Korea is protected by China, and they would present more than slight resistance to a US (or, very possibly, UN) invasion/military assault/etc. So we don’t go after them. But Iraq … now what real threat (other than the WMD promises which have so far gone, I believe, almost utterly if not completely unfulfilled) did they pose? Did they have a standing military that stood one thousandth of a chance against the US?
Just wondering.
What are you talking about? If Canada as a nation was gone it we would probably be part of the US and that would mean 30 million more taxpayers to pay for that protection. Right now we aren’t paying anything.
If we, as Canadians, aren’t willing to do what is necessary to defend ourselves then why do we even have a separate country? I mean, if it isn’t worth defending then why defend it? And just because you can’t preceive of a current threat doesn’t mean that one doesn’t exist, or will exist in the future. As was stated earlier it takes time to build a modern military. Time that you may not have. EG. Kim Jong fires a missle at Seattle (why? Because he is crazy is why). Yet the thing doesn’t quite make it and it lands on Vancouver. What are you going to do? It might be an unlikely example, but it doesn’t mean that it couldn’t happen. It is the unlikely situations that you have to prepare for. The unlikely situation of Europe shooting at each other again. The unlikely situation that India and Pakistan start nuking each other. Think that wouldn’t escalate into the mid-east or other areas? Not all requirements for defence mean that you are protecting your own borders.
Airman is talking from an American perspective and I know that Canadians get their shorts in a knot when anyone from the States criticizes us (and we seem to get insulted when the States ignores us, too. Remember right after the 9-11 attack when Cretien was fence sitting and Bush in his speech soon afterwards didn’t mention us?), but that doesn’t make what he says untrue. Having been in the military 20 years ago when you had to run throught the woods yelling, “Bullets, bullets!” because there were no blanks for training and then looking at it today makes me wonder why we even continue to bother.
The US military establishment (historically speaking) has probably never wanted a militarily strong Canada. In the “What if” scenarios they play, an invasion from Canada must always be considered. In the What If scenario, Canadanians might suddenly go right-wing, become a dicatorship and before you know it their version of the Weremacht is roaring across the border. No thank you. I don’t have a cite for this opinion, but I believe it’s an accurate assessment. One of the key reasons behind the U.S.'s success is surely the fact that it hasn’t really had to deal with a destablizing invasion. The US is blessed with militarily weak neighbors/competitors; I doubt anyone in the Joint Chiefs is biting their fingernails over Canada’s military the way the OP is.
And the notion that Canada will be used as a staging base by some foreign power strikes me as silly. The possibility of terrorists slipping into the country through the Canadian border is valid, but that strikes me more as a border police/customs agent operation rather than a military function.
The Canadian army made short work or a couple of feet of snow for Torontonians a few years back… Must have been a slow war day.
Hamish is correct. Canadians traditionally underspend on the military in peacetime. However, the recent recession and resultant spending cuts hit our military hard. It pains me to hear, here and elsewhere, that our soldiers live in crummy digs and are forced to use out-dated or borrowed equipment. Our economy is coming around, and with an election in the offing there should be plenty of goodies for everyone, including the military.
Don’t forget that our tax base is much smaller than yours. More people live in NY State than in all of Canada. We have a large land mass to defend with fewer dollars and a smaller pool of soldiers.
Finally, to answer your question, if the U.S. soil was under attack, we’d be at your side. I hope the same would be true in reverse. We also have other friends, like the entire Commonwealth, who would run to our defence if need be.
Wow. Incredibly insulting and completely foolish. If Canada were invaded, not only would we be the first ones in the fight, we’d probably invade the offending country and deliver their leadership in shackles to Parliament Hill for you, then take over your war debt, rebuild whatever was destroyed, rebuild the offending country, erase all their debts, and feed their people for the next twenty years while they get back on their feet. All without claiming any of their territory as our own.
It wouldn’t matter a goddamn bit if you were right on our border or 10,000 miles away. As much bickering as we’ve done with France lately, we’d do the exact same fucking thing for them. Again. Only this time we’d damn near be able to do it by ourselves.