Canada gives up on their military. I wonder who they're depending on now?

The BBQ Pit
121

I’d say a lot of people in here near to take a deep breath, except this is the pit, so all you’d inhale would be ashes.

First off, Airman Doors, the idea of an actual military invasion of Canada is, quite frankly, laughable. Even when the polar ice melts, and the Northwest Passage outdoes the Panama Canal for trade, there still will be no army traipsing across Canada. We’re more likely to accept refugees from Louisiana’s delta and relocate them to Nunavut so they can grow oranges. While you may have discussed an army invading Canada during war games training, such a scenario is really out of date.

Second, the article that this whole debate is based on is nothing but a trial balloon. We’re Canadian, and we like to float such things from time to time. They don’t mean anything. Besides, look at the cash involved-- it’s a piddly amount, especially for a country that is not running a deficit, and has its debt under control.

Third, even if Canada were to come to blows with another country, don’t assume that massive firepower beats everything. Go look up Millennium Challenge– a massive wargame involving the U.S. military-- where the U.S. lost on Day Two to a guy pretending to be Iraq. And the reason I’ve linked to a British article is because the Pentagon decided to hit the ‘reset’ button after their forces lost, and then took away cruise missiles from the ‘Red Team’.

Fourth, the idea of any threat to North America coming from traditional military forces is absurd. That’s an idea that no military man likes to think about, but it’s true. The U.S. has lost more soldiers and more civilians to terrorist acts than they have on the field of war-- and unfortunately, the current administration is seemingly unable to get a handle on the simple truth that soldiers are almost defunct. What’s needed is more police, and police-style intelligence. Give me undercover operatives. Give me a coast guard. But don’t give me 10,000 grunts.

The next attack in North America isn’t going to come from a cruise missile, or an army. It’ll come about because the Hell’s Angels smuggled some people into the country on a cigarette boat, then crawled through the sewer system and planted a nuke underneath the White House. The Military just doesn’t cope with that kind of situation very well.

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While it is certianly true that Japanese and German status since WW2 is generally ‘soft’ power (buying things, leading by example) they relied during the same period (Japan by constitutional fiat, Germany to a lesser extent conventionally) for protection, on the United States/NATO. The United States certianly has the capabilities for ‘soft’ power, and we use it quite a bit (the Marshall Plan, rebuilding Japan, etc.) This has been cut since the 1960’s, and isn’t likely to be funded at those historic levels again. Even “rebuilding” Iraq isn’t all its cracked up to be.

Instead the US relies more and more on ‘hard’ power (“nuke them from orbit… It’s the only way to be sure.”) But we still have the largest economy on the planet. So even as we focus more on one kind of power, we retain both.

Canada is losing it’s ability to have ‘any’ kind of hard power, even the rather benign aspects such as fishery protection and peacekeeping. Due to geography, that’s ok. No one messes with the Americas without our say so. (Monroe Doctrine) But your military power is something that’s taken into account when people consider Canada the state.

I agree that an investment in ‘hard’ power beyond the abilities of a state to maintain itself is a dumb idea. I don’t think anyone in this thread is advocating Canada to arm itself to the teeth and prepare for Russian tanks to roll across the Arctic. (I know, not really possiable. But you see they have a weather control device, and…)

But, when a military loses bases it loses the ability to train effectivly, and when troops have to trade equipment when they arrive in theater, then they didn’t get a chance to become accustomed to it before the shooting starts. And when soldiers make a pitance (as we’re learning in the states too) they start leaving, and take their skills and training with them. And when your equipment is old, outdated, and falling apart, your army (which like most NATO armies relies upon technical advantage to make up for lowered manpower) isn’t as reliable/ready for deployment.

I think saying, “Hey, we’re neighbors, we’re friends, and we rely upon each other as NATO member, as NORAD members, and in anti-terrorism ops. We’re worried about the state of your armed forces. We think you need to make some capital investments in them soon, or they’re going to fall apart. We will of course pick up the slack in the meantime, but this isn’t what you want your army to look like. We know, we’ve been there. In WW1 we had troops training with broom handles, and it wasn’t good.” Isn’t disparaging Canada, but being a friendly local nation with an interst in your security.

C

123

How much military does Canada posses?

Someone said 10000 men, 50 F-18 and a handful of frigates. Another one mentioned that they had a hard time to rally up 2000 men for Afghanistan.

Surely it cannot be this little, I was under the impression that Canada was on the top 10 list. Häck, if that’s all you got then even the miniature army of Sweden could take you on.
If only we could get our stuff over there that is….
…got to go, work to do.

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coffeecam,

NORAD should prevent the Russians from catapulting samovars across the Arctic, which is in any case – melting.

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I’ve no particular dog in the fight about Canadian military. Strong or weak, if something were to threaten Canada militarily, the US would jump into the fight (on the Canadian side) with both feet, and if necessary, shed US soldiers’ blood by the 55-gallon drum to make sure that Canada survives. And we’d do it cheerfully. Afterwards, we’d throw ticker-tape parades and make poutine our national dish for a while. But this kind of thing:

makes me wish we’d have second thoughts. CheekyMonkey, you are a complete, utter, despicable fool. If any military confrontation ever happens on the face of the planet, you can bet your ass that everyone in the Security Council of the UN turns and looks at the US representative first, and what goes through their heads is, “What’s the US going to do about this?” We’re the world’s “police force” in a large part because the fucking world wants us to be the police force. If we became military isolationists (“Kosovo? Sorry, but it’s a European problem,”) every politician in the world would start wringing his hands because he knows that a new era of brushfire wars and raw imperialism is on the doorstep because nobody else has the ability to do a goddamn thing about it.

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I, too, wonder when it started. I vividly remember wanting a Green Card and being pissed off that I couldn’t apply for the greencard lottery because I’m in Quebec. I don’t know where it came from. I honestly think I developped my opinions when I really started paying attention. Back in the day, I would have killed for a Green Card (which is pink, btw). Honestly, it’s best I wasn’t afforded one. I don’t respect America at all. Better someone else got the chance. If I had a greencard fall into my lap today, I’d give it to someone else. I have absolutely no interest in being assiociated with America. I’d be ashamed. That’s coming from a Canadian, who doesn’t have too much to be proud of. But at least I don’t have too much to be ashamed of.

I don’t have a chip on my shoulder about Americans. I see things real clear. I’ve been on many cruise boards and met wonderful American cruisers on vacation with me. I’ve been to many vacation destinations where I’ve made friends with Americans. I’ve owned Jewish chat rooms on MSN & PalTalk, and met wonderful Jewish American chatters. I love Americans, in general. It’s the Americans (way too many of them if you ask me) with 'tude that I can do without.

Sorry to say, but I’m reflecting my reality. It’s not a chip on my shoulder. If it were, I’d give a shit. I have a chip on my shoulder about Quebec separatists, for sure. I know a chip on my shoulder when I see one. And, because of them and my country’s non-action towards them, I’m leaving. I don’t have a chip on my shoulders towards Americans; I feel sorry for alot of them, if that counts. I’m pissed off at a country who thinks they’re better than any other, and who impose their beliefs on everyone else’s. That’s all. Chip on my shoulder? No. I just think it’s laughable that the USA portrays themselves as the heroes of the world when every other country sees right through them, including Tony Blair’s ass-kissing country. But that’s another rant.

127

According to this site Canada contributes $16.16 more per capita in international economic aid than the US (and both are a pitance compared to European countries)? Is that what you mean by devoting resources? Or are you only concerned with military issues?

In terms of economies of scale, Canada is doing alot for a country with about 1/10 the population of the US.

128

What a steaming pile this thread is - it seems to have brought out the worst Yank-haters, together with the most lunatic Yanks.

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Ok, so I’m a complete, utter, despicable fool. My father regularly called me a fucking bitch when I was 5 years old, so you’ll have to work harder to insult me.

What about this scenario: What if ENGLAND were to “take back” Canada? What if England were to invade? Would your Tony-Blair-Ass-Kissing-Selves defend us then?

Honestly, I don’t give a shit if you defend us. There aren’t too many countries in the world that I wouldn’t rather invade us than have to thank the Good Ol’ US of A for saving our Cannuk Asses.

North Korea, take me now!

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Your unfortunate childhood issues aside, I wasn’t trying to insult you. I was speaking the truth. If you believe half of what you’ve posted here, you are a fool.

Wouldn’t happen. But, assuming it did, I doubt very seriously that the US would allow it to happen. And if we said no, the UK would have to back off. They couldn’t win a confrontation.

Ah, the Canadian inferiority complex raises its ugly head again. “They’ve been taught this since they were itty bitty babies. It’s their culture.”

Indeed.

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Well, first of all … 2 bonus points on your repartis. I appreciate your wit, though you disagree with me.

More importantly, in your “assuming it did” situation… you say, “I doubt very seriously that they US would allow it to happen.” Now you tell me: If you’re not letting your new “best friend” come in and take back a country that once belonged to the Commonwealth, what country should we be afraid of at all?

If you’ll fight England, you’ll fight anybody. So remind me why our elderly shouldn’t be taken care of, our children shouldn’t be taught, our homeless shouldn’t be fed, instead of arming ourselves against even your new best friend?

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Jeeze Cheekymonkey… Thanks for letting me rethink my venom here. When you see someone heap such a load it really makes one look seriously at how they are portraying themselves.

I have to say that I do not hate the United States. As far as world powers go it has been pretty much the most benign. True now and then they flex their muscles a little too hard and sometimes certain acts are questionable (Supporting oppressive dictatorships or covertly overthrowing governements) but the people in general are not EEEvil monsters. They do actually want to do good in the world.
They can be a little insular in their views but they have the right. They are the elephant we are the mouse. Sometimes The elephant cant see where it’s feet land or what effects they may have. When you are that big you tend to keep your sights on what you need.

We come as arrogant because we get quite bent when we are told from the outside what we should or shouldn’t do. It is our way of being defiant. We know we are small and we are reminded constantly about it by The US. That creates a bit of a chip. Sometimes this gets out of hand and turns into outright America bashing.

It can be a little silly but when the majority of messages that spill across the boarder is “WE ARE THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH! WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO COUNT! YOU DON’T LIKE IT? TOUGH, WE CAN DO WHAT EVER WE WANT, WE’RE AMERICA” it can get a little grating. To you it is being simply patriotic to us it to us… well it is annoying because it implies we are not.

Part of the make up of the Canadian psyche is the omni presence of the United States. TV films, news etc etc we are bombarded. You, my American friends have no idea what this is like. So naturally it creates some envy and any accomplishments we get we tout. Any weakness in the US we hold up as an example of Why we aren’t as puny as we feel.

When someone like Airman comes up and says We’d better take care of our Military because we don’t want to pay to protect you. It sounds in Candian ears like:
“YOU’D BETTER DO WHAT WE WANT OR ELSE! YOU AREN’T DOING WHAT WE NEED”

Follow that with other posts belittling our peacekeeping efforts, a point of pride, and well you have a nice mixture to generate resentment. We know our weaknesses… hell more than one Canadian pointed out we need to fix the funding. We just don’t need others to throw it in our face.

By the way as reassuring as you think it sounds when you say you’d be the first to protect us… it sounds so Fricken condecending. You may not understand it but you really haven’t a clue what it is like to live with you.Just my two cents.

133

Seems rather a lot of pigheadedness in this thread.

I’d be another Canadian who’d like to see military funding restored to a point where the military is functional again. I’m a little confused by the assertion by some in this thread that we need to do this for reasons of national defense, though.

As many have noted in this thread, there is no country on the planet with both the inclination to invade Canada and the ability to project force across vast oceans. The insistence that, sooner or later, Canada will be invaded, makes me chuckle. Not because I don’t believe it, but because of what I think the most likely scenario is. I expect that, assuming Canada is ever invaded, the most likely invader is also the most recent invader, aka the United States of America, by simple dint of proximity. Obviously, given the current state of things this event, should it happen, is many decades or, more probably, centuries away. And in the meantime, it’s perfectly possible that North America will become a super-state akin to the European Union in an more advanced form. In such an event the most probable military conflict becomes a civil war fought not along old nation-state lines, but along regional lines. I would think that an outside invasion of North America less likely than either of these scenarios, at least in the imaginable future. Nuking NA, yes, that’s quite possible. But invading? Certainly not with conventional forces. Insurgency supported from abroad would be more likely. Oceans are just to freaking big to fight wars across without secure staging areas on the other side.

Anyways, Airman needn’t worry about our national defense. If a conventional threat begins to emerge, we can likely develop nukes within a very short timeframe.

In the meantime, it makes far more sense to Canadians to be concerned about our military’s ability to patrol coastal waters and our ability to field a reasonable amount of highly trained light and mechanized infantry for peacekeeping and other not-entirely-conventional deployments, such as Afghanistan.

Oh, and Cheeky? Turn it down a notch or ten, will you?

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Fair enough, kingpengvin. I probably can’t put myself in your situation. CheekyMonkey, I apologize.

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That might have been me both times. I didn’t mean to imply that finding the forces was hard, but supplying 2,000 troops in the field in additiona to their current work load was actually opposed by one of the senior staff.

He resigned. Bless him.

Anyway, numbers were off the top of my head, here’s what the CBC can tell you.

136

Well, provided Bond has managed to take out the Weather control device, and samovars are the only thing we have to worry about… but what about the voltage adapters? Belated :smiley:

C

137

Ogre, that is too cool of you. Thanks so much. No prob.

Kingpengvin, you nailed it man. It’s a pity the words come in my head half-french, half-english. Eloquent to no one. But you nailed it. Thank you.

138

Me big strong Canadian woman. Like GI Joes and American movie stars. Frenchy talk makes big Canadian woman melt, like snow-woman in April. Get over it man, our cereal boxes make far more interesting reading in bi-lingual.

I’ll make you some Newfie steak and boiled cabbage (cooked to the consistency of wet Kleenex, just the way you like it) and we can talk about it… just shut up for a minute… the hockey game’s on. Pass me a beer…

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Are you for real, guy?

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Goodness! Don’t gremlins make electricity? Do you think the ruskies will make a short circuit between the poles? I really haven’t a clue what you mean by voltage adapters. No amount of joshing can cover that up. I had to shut off the main power to my house to change a light bulb yesterday.