Yes. They tie to your toe. 
So I will, If you will allow me this perspective: my father pushed recruits as a TI in the Air Force way back in the brown shoe era. Members of my family have received basic training in every branch of service including Coast Guard (and if you wish to disparage USCG basic, I’d point out that their basic training center on the shore of New Jersey has to be continually relocated farther west becuase the constant push-ups keep sending it below sea level). There is really no difference in difficulty - it’s just that our Marines undergo an additional two weeks.
The TI’s/DI’s/DS’s/CC’s are experts in pushing each individual to hs or her human limit. A Marine DI can push a recruit no further than a Navy CC could the same individual had that recruit enlisted in the other branch, any more than a Marine could put more water into a cup than a sailor could.
I don’t know squat about stress cards, but in my day, we were always told about (A) how the other services had easier boot camps, (B) how much tougher it was in the old days, and (C) how REALLY much tougher it was over in Russian boot camp. And when my great-great-grandfather marched south they probably told him how every Georgia boy had a rifle placed in his cradle at birth. It’s all part of the head game.
Oh, yes, stress cards and low stress training…
When I was going through Infantry basic in Benning we heard all about the low stress training fuckwads over in D Co. (I was in A Co. 3/32–Queen’s Own!). Supposedly it was an experiment, what I do know was that those little fucks didn’t sweat nearly as much as we did. I remember going to the shoppette in my 6th week to get a haircut and shaving supplies (along with the rest of my platoon), imagine our surprise when we saw those limp dick second weekers able to get soda and a candy bar (and they bitched cause they could only get one of each). I didn’t get either until I went on pass on Family day. Arrghh, we hated those little fucks.
As far as stress cards go…I’ve never seen one, never had anyone tell me they used one. I do have a buddy that when he went back active and had to retrain in Jackson tell me that the basic trainees had time-out cards or danger cards. If they felt something was dangerous they could pull it out and the Drill Sargeant would have to explain why it wasn’t dangerous. I admit this is at best second hand, and I don’t know all the details but I have no reason to doubt my friend was pulling my leg.
As far as documented cites regarding stress cards, apparently the Navy did have them, and they were abussed by the trainees.
This is a report to the Sec of Def which advises the elimination of stress cards in the Navy
A report to the 105th congress
http://www.house.gov/hasc/Publications/105thCongress/Reports/sexualmisconductinterim.pdf
A report from the Heritage Foundation regarding basic training
http://www.heritage.org/library/archives/backgrounder/bg_1147.pdf
So IOW, stress cards did exist, at least in the Navy.
So I will, If you will allow me this perspective:
<snip>
There is really no difference in difficulty - it’s just that our Marines undergo an additional two weeks.
The TI’s/DI’s/DS’s/CC’s are experts in pushing each individual to hs or her human limit. A Marine DI can push a recruit no further than a Navy CC could the same individual had that recruit enlisted in the other branch, any more than a Marine could put more water into a cup than a sailor could.**
[/QUOTE]
Perspective allowed. Perspective all fucked up, but nevertheless allowed. Talk to anyone who has been through any other basic and then gone to Parris Island. I have talked to these people. It IS different. Big time.
Major UncleBill, USMCR
Heresay, UncleBill. That doesn’t explain how my perspective is “all fucked up.”
You guys even pull this b.s. on EACHOTHER: Marines from the Island dis the Marines who went through basic in San Diego as “Hollywood Marines,” as if somebody at the Pentagon said “Okay - Our nation’s freedom depends on tough Marines, but let’s make sure the ones who go to San Diego come out less tough than the ones who go through Paris Island, freedom’s defense be damned, just so the ones from Paris Island can feel more studly.”
I thank you for your service to our country. However, I can’t thank you for this instance of your input to the message board, because all it is is raw attitude. Your brand of intersevice rivalry is a false comfort to the kids in boot camp, and it was a boon to the Iranians when the hostage rescue attempt turned into a disaster.
BTW: boot camp is to war only what high school is to real life. Or maybe I’m wrong and the fact that more sailors than Marines gave their lives at Guadalcanal is because the Marines had to do more push-ups.
Okay, I just said all that inflamatory stuff because you initiated obscene language between us and, for your sake, I didn’t want it to look like I don’t deserve to be cursed at. Now here’s my solid argument:
You say people you knew said Marine bootcamp was tougher than a prior basic in antoher service. I say this was because the DI’S knew all about their prior service and leaned on them harder accordingly. In my Navy basic, my brother’s USAF basic and my brother-in-laws USCG basic there were all ex-other (including Marine) service, and they were all given “special” treatment. DI’s (D.S’s, etc.) aren’t stupid - they know they have to break you, and if you’ve been through basic you have a “been her, done this” attitude that must get the clobber.
I went to MCRD San Diego. I had to go to P.I. for requalification after returning from RVN. I actually saw a DI talking to a boot and the boot was smiling. Now, how wierd was that?
Pushups do not make people avoid bullets or shrapnel with their name on it. Parris Island (2 r’s) has mystique and mosquitoes, and higher humidity and heat indices, but the training is (now) the same. San Diego has hills, PI is flat. (I myself did Quantico, VA.) But I do stand by my statement that Marine Corps Boot Camp (both of them) are tougher (combined psychological, physical, and skills required) than Navy, Air Force, or Army basic training. Every Marine Recruit (infantry, cook, or candlestick maker) must qualify Marksman with the M16 on the rifle range. The Air Force at least when I knew about it did not. The Navy did not. Not sure about ALL the Army recruits. The Crucible is about 52 hours of straight humping, tactical exercises, team problem solving, classes, and more humping. Granted that is fairly new, but that kicks butt over other Basic Training styles.
Well I was in Air Force ROTC and I recall one day when we had to march back and forth for two hours while somebody yelled unkind things at us. My shiny shoes got dusty. Also we only had a 14 inch color TV in the rec room and the tint control never worked right.
Ok, so maybe that wasn’t that bad.
I decided to go for a career in computers rather than the Air Force, but my Dad who was an Air Force pilot assures me that the boot camp equation gets narrowed out a bit by this nasty thing called Survival school. They basically dropped him and other cadets off in an artic wilderness for five days with two days of rations. Two of the cadets involved lost toes to frostbite. But it was all worth it because my father learned to survive in bitterly cold conditions. So then they sent him to Vietnam…
Just one question:
How am I supposed to reach my stress card when I’m in Alarm Red, MOPP 4, and hunkered down underneath my bunker? How is the enemy supposed to see me waving my card around when I have to duck because I’m getting shot at?
Tripler
Just a practical question. Because I don’t think the enemy takes Visa either, even though it’s “Everywhere I want to be.”.
<re-reading first post…>
Jesus, can I get a retroactive spell check in there or something?
UncleBill, is wise, and, IMO and experience, absolutely correct.
The Intra-Marine East vs. West Coast thing is simple camaraderie and competition. The jibes at other services are dead on (though often exaggerated a tad.)
The point here, though, isn’t who’s Boot Camp is the toughest, it’s whether or not the level, or degree of harshness, of training has changed. I would say “yes, unequivocally,” however, it might not be entirely bad. Training models have changed. The Corps (and, I’m sure, all branches) have been modifying their training since inception. This isn’t a bragging thing, but the Marines surely have refined their training to inspire the best desired result, namely: instant action in the face of commands, enemy fire and combat situations.
Some call it brainwashing. To some degree they are right. I would hope the average Joe off the street doesn’t have the mind set required to charge a fighting hole, tossing grenades and sniping targets. Training and experience are required to develop these “traits,” if you will, and allow the person to carry out their mission in the face of overwhelming odds. Don’t get me wrong, I never want to have to shoot someone or God forbid, go to war, and I think you’d be hard pressed to find many that would.
The Marine Corps and the Army engage targets one on one. The Navy and the Air Force, for the most part, engage targets remotely or from a great distance. The difference between pressing a button and firing a round that will go 14 miles down-range and squeezing a trigger and seeing the whites of a mans eyes turn into a red haze at 50’ is entirely different and the training required for each mission demonstrates this.
I’ll admit, at this point, to not being entirely coherent, it’s early and I’ve not quite woken up, so UncleBill, sir, if you could continue your fine dissertation and, please, correct any grievous errors I may have made or inferred.
And Tripler, that is exactly correct. Well said, even for a hunkering flyboy.
Well, as fas as Basic Training for different services goes, I was in Navy Basic in the late 70’s at Great Lakes. I was then in Army Basic in the early 80’s at Ft. Jackson. There just isn’t any comparison between the two. They teach some of the same things such as responsibility and honor, but the Army teaches more war related skills. Anyone that says Army Basic is easy never had to go through it. We were the first cycle that came in as the BDU’s were being phased in so half of our uniform issue was OD and the other half Camo. We looked like a bunch of geeks for the most part. Did this change the nature of our training? Not one bit. We got intensive training on more than just the M16 - also the M60, M2, Grenades, Laaws, and M203/M79’s.
All that said, I know that Marine training isn’t just harder than other services but more intense. When you have to train a man to be able to make an ocean assault landing and fight through the enemies prepared positions, it had BETTER be more intense. From extensice reading, I’ve learned that the Marines have continually revamped their training standards since the late 1800’s whereas the Army didn’t bother to change much of anything until AFTER the Korean War.
Personally, I feel that Navy SEAL training would have to be considered the most difficult of ANY of the services and find it very hard to believe that anyone could intelligently refute that fact.
Whoa! That’s a first. . .
Well, see, Trip, there’s the problem. Do you really want to be somewhere where they’re shooting at you? I mean, c’mon.
Re: Marine boot camp etc.
I know Marine Boot Camp is harder. Why? Did I go through it? No. I went through Navy Boot Camp. However, I was an EMT at Naval Training Center in San Diego, where we also serviced the Marine Corps boot camp down the street. I don’t remember having to run 20 miles in boots and a pack in Navy boot camp,
I think thinksnow got it right: they have different missions. I know I certainly wouldn’t want to be in the Army following a contigent of Marines who’d gone through Navy boot camp. Doesn’t make sense, does it? I guess I’ve always seen Marine Corps as the first strike, initial contact and the Army as the muscle that maintains that strike. Navy and Air Force cover the areas the two land forces don’t.
/hijack/
And on that subject, Dad (Vietnam SeaBee) and I were talking ballistics the other night, discussing snipers and the distance they can reach. Interesting conversation. /end hijack/
And please don’t think my definition of defense services is some written-in-stone thing in my head. I’m not looking for a GD, it’s just a working defintion for me.
And Trip, I forgot the little winky smilie after my comment. Take it as such, 'k? 
[sub]Once agian, Tripler has it right![/sub]
Whoa! That’s a first. . .
Hey, I’ve been shot at before. Besides, you never see Bob Vila in a hot LZ.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by thinksnow *
**
We both got it right? Whoa! That’s a first. . .
Tripler
Nobody here has intimated that ANY basic training is easy. None are. It takes a certain kind of person to join the military, and that take guts. And desire. These people are special, in the good way.
Xploder (great name, BTW) is right on about BUDS and SEAL training. Kicks Marine Corps training square between the eyes for toughness. Add to that other Special Warfare training.
But back to the OP, I have heard of these cards, but never first hand. I can imagine where the good docs (BunnyGirl?)would have found it if I had pulled one out for my Sergeant Instructor, Staff Sergeant Ennis!
Just to add my own little tidbit, my friend is in the USMC reserves and I remember when he got back from boot camp he told me about this little gem.
According to him once you pass boot camp a Marine can transfer to any other service (Army, Navy Air Force) that he wants to without having to go through boot camp again. BUT if anyone from another service, including the Army, wants to transfer into the Marines, then they have to go through the Marine Corp. boot camp. The reason my friend knew this is because he had an Army major with him when he went through boot camp. I do not know why an Army major would want to transfer to the Marines but he still had to go through the boot camp.
Sorry for the hijack.
-N
My first post in the Pit!
Blackclaw is right. The absolute EASIEST way to get in the military (and the best, IMO) is as an officer via ROTC. The 4 years of college is basically your boot camp, and the focus (speaking as a Navy guy), or priority, is that you’re a student first and foremost.
You get yelled at some, but it’s by your fellow midshipmen/students… how seriously can you take that?
Survival School is definitely tough and is easily the most powerful emotional wringer I’ve ever been through. I have cried once in my adult life and it was at the very end of that school, when we found out that it was over. Oh… GI Jane Survival School? Doesn’t exist.
[slight hijack]
FTR, though, what kills me the most is the fucking double standard with women during flight training. Sorry, ladies, but I gotta vent this. We had an obstacle course next to the beach, all sand, part of which was a big, 8 foot sheer wall. Running start, jump, grab top, pull self up and over. Sound easy? It ain’t. Not in sand, anyway. (Being 5’5 also doesn’t help) If you can’t do the course in the max time alloted (a few minutes, I think it was) then you basically fail and wind up driving ships for a living. So during one of two practice runs I do the wall and during the “pull self up” portion I hear something rip in my shoulder. Spent a month in rehab, then tried the course again, this time for real. Didn’t know if my shoulder would hold out or rip again, and didn’t want to practice the wall on my own beforehand to see 'cause I didn’t want to hurt myself that way and be out-processed for being injured too long. Between a rock and a hard place here.
So here we are, at the start line, and I’m so nervous, this morning being the determining moment of how I will spend the next 4 to 8years in the Navy and my life. I’m watching the people in front of me go, waiting for my turn. I notice that each time a girl gets to the wall, all she does is TAP THE FUCKING THING WITH HER HAND AS SHE RUNS BY IT. No up and over, just tap and run, and, IIRC, they have more time to finish the course, to boot! UN-FUCKING BELIEVABLE.
Not their fault, since this is Navy regs we’re talking about. But boy did I lose respect for each woman I saw tap that thing as they ran by. Maybe they didn’t have to scale it, but if they wanted my respect (and most of the other guys, I bet) the should have anyway. This was years ago and it still makes my blood boil. (obviously, the shoulder held out, and as I was nearing the finish line, I suddenly stopped, puked (my first and last stress-puke), and crossed.)
[/hijack]