Deal.
I see the Ukrainian government has now fallen in a non-confidence vote after massive but peaceful protests. So much for protests not making a difference.
I notice that the Ukrainians protest against undemocratic issues in their own country, while you seem to protest against another country’s democracy. Also you have many other democratic avenues open for you to pursue your grievances through, which were barred for the Ukrainians. Also the Ukrainian situation involves much more than mere mass demonstrations. And yours weren’t even mass.
Naturally I support your right to voice your concerns in whatever non-violent format you find appropriate. What I find particular obnoxious is the insistence of certain groups of protesters that they in some way represent The People. You do not. You represent nothing but yourself, which going on number alone is just a small political fringe group. And you obviously don’t even have anything resembling a common political message or platform. (What do you think of those idiots with the US=Nazi signs? How would you be caught dead in such company?) Why should a democracy be overly influenced by what amounts to such a minuscule fraction of the whole population? The people who stayed home overwhelmed you many times over.
I don’t think any one was advocating a direct democracy, but at the same time I don’t think a US style representative model will work either. My point is that democracy, in whatever form it takes, requires a degree of trust in the rule of law and the expectation of due process that takes time. You can not simply grab people by the scruff of the neck, give them a piece of paper with some neat divisions of power, random listings of things to do and not do and expect a functional state to spring up. What you need is stability, due process and wealth. We should expect 10-20 years of semi-authoritarian rule progressing to real responsible government as an end goal, not as a check mark on a to do list.
I’m going to go ahead and start fantasizing about how to spend my $20.
I laughed, I cried.
I’m curious; what democracy are these people protesting against?
I don’t see anyone suggesting the United States should stop holding elections. I’ve never heard of anyone suggest it wouldn’t be nice for Iraq to be a democracy. I know a lot of people don’t believe for an instant the USA will allow a legitimately free democracy in Iraq, but that’s hardly the same thing.
Ah yes, the old “if your opinion isn’t the opinion of the majority you should just shut up and obey” argument.
And to assume that people who do not attend a protest take opposing views to the protesters is also mistaken. Whether or not one attends a protest has nothing to do with one’s opinion on the issue being protested.
Brutus, finally I must ask: what is this fixation you have about bongos? Do you think its some kind of clever barb, those bongo bashing hippy lefties? With their hairy legged girlfriends? Do you actually know any?
You need to upgrade your stereotypes, they are woefully out of date. Berets, goatees, benzedrine, expresso, abstract jazz, and bongos…beatnik. Late 50’s. Long, long gone. Just a little help so you don’t look quite so utterly out of touch.
You really should get out more. Honestly.
As to Captain Clueless’s foray amongst the Canucks: gotta love it. Thinks you guys are at least as dumb as us. Thinks the reason Canada, and a bunch of us, don’t agree with his Iraq “policy” is that we don’t believe the Iraqis can deal with democracy. Its one of those moments: does he think we are that stupid, is he that stupid, or both?
Well to tell you the truth, judging by the photos it’s more than a little murky what the hell they are in fact protesting. Certainly there was a fair amount resentment at Bush and the US. If you attack a democratically elected foreign leader’s person, and not specific policies of his, and vilify the whole country, you object to democracy and reveal yourself a bigot. There are a number of protesters with posters wishing or promising harm (torture, death) to Bush. Threatening the elected president of a democratic country is protesting democracy. It isn’t hard to imagine how a lot of those assembled have little respect for democracy (…or historical facts, common decency or even sanity); there are communists (Communist Party of Canada), socialists (Socialist Workers Party – put a National in front of that and all the Nazi imagery immediately becomes much more understandable), anarchists, conspiracy nuts and just plain nuts – and what The Fucking Raelian Movement (pathetic! hit the bottom did you, started digging…)
And I ask again, how the hell would a sane person be seen anywhere near, not to say in any way be associated with, fucking idiots who carry Bush=Hitler/US=Third Reich/Jews=Nazis - slogans?
Ah yes. Well, it must have been the evil Christmas elf who made that argument, because I certainly did not.
Of course (btw. there’s no “and”), and I did not do so. I merely pointed out how utter preposterous it is to claim that 0,015625% of a population in any way can pretend to speak for The People and that it should have what influence that amounts to 0,015625% of the whole, no matter how loud and obnoxious they behave themselves.
So is this you Matt (“BUCK FUSH”)? : http://ottawa.indymedia.org/images/2004/11/97.jpg
Nope, there were a number of signs to that effect (you can see another one, identical to the foreground one, in the left hand background). Mine was hand-lettered; I made about seven placards, with different things front and back, and gave them away to various people.
Um, a bigot is not someone who thinks that an individual is an idiot or an asshole on the basis of what that individual does. Or do you mean that if you personally dislike Carolyn Parrish, you are bigoted against everyone in Mississauga–Erindale?
From what I’ve observed of him, I think George Bush is a dangerous man of little learning or culture who fancies himself God’s representative on earth far more than is justified, and has very shadowy influences behind him. I’m sure if someone preferable had been the Republican presidential candidate, Republicans would have been happy to vote for that person. Who is this supposed to make me bigoted against, again?
So basically what you’re saying is that I should absent myself from a protest of several thousand people because a smattering of them are saying things I disagree with? That seems rather pointless to do. What we have in common is that we disapprove of Bush’s policies to some important extent, regardless of ancillary issues. Wouldn’t that be letting extremists get in the way of my democratic expression?
I also have to say I’m confused by the people who think that protesting is a waste of time. Is it ever a waste of time to express your opinion in a democratic society? Is it a waste of time, for example, to write letters to the press or people in government? Public protest is founded on the same principle, and it doesn’t have to be civil disobedience or direct action to accomplish this.
He has had a long and burning hatred for Maynard G. Krebs.
I am of Slavic decent. Of course I know hairy legged girlfriends. Besides, you non-hep cat, kids these days love banging the bongos at protests. Just a fact of life, I’m afraid.
Protests these days include:
- Bongos.
- Some young n’er-do-wells playing hacky-sack.
- Someone who wants to Free Mumia!
- Bush is Hitler! signs.
- People selling socialist and communist literature.
And so on. Caricatures? I dare you to find me a protest of 1000+ people that doesn’t include these elements. ‘Protesters’ are terribly predictable, much like the lack of effect that their protest will have.
Clearly, you’ve looked in a mirror and didn’t like the BDS[sup]1[/sup]-afflicted visage looking back. That’s a good thing. If it helps your recovery to put some of it on me, I’m OK with that.
I probably know more about Canada’s military than you do. For one thing, I know that it’s the RCMP that does police training, not the military. RCMP says it’s ready to expand the efforts they’re already making with Iraqi police in Jordan. I believe them. Why do you have so little faith in them?
This is a lot bigger than Bush – that’s my point here. Iraq is asking for your help. As to moral authority, whenever you read about one of the terrorists attacking a line of police recruits, remember that there is a line of people trying to get recruited to become policemen – people who know they’ll be unarmed targets standing in line and do it anyway for the future of their country. Most Iraqis want democracy for their country – that’s all the moral authority anyone needs for the mission at hand.
There was disappointment in Washington, and security does trump trade. Would you rather hear a lie?
I’m disappointed in your low opinion of your country’s abilities and resources. I think you can do this. I think you can make a huge difference. I think you can do it while not only maintaining the help you’re giving to so many other places but still have reserve capacity when you are called upon to do it again somewhere else (say, the Sudan, which I think we agree needs invaded and overthrown, or Rwanda, which may or not be invading Congo right now and thus need overthrowing). I think Canada kicks ass.
[sup]1[/sup]: BDS - Bush Derangement Syndrome
Since you refer to protests of 1000 people, what relevance does the presence of these individuals have to the protesters in general?
Hippies and slackers, almost to a person. Except for the front row, which was comprised by people who make money off of the foolishness of hippies and slackers.
Can’t say whether he’s saying or not, of course, but I wouldn’t say that. But I would say that some things are so beyond the bounds of decency that as long as you’re speaking out against something anyway you are honor-bound to speak out against them when they occur right in your face. A person who superimposes a swastica on a Star of David, for example, should be decked. And by decked I mean actually, physically punched in the face and knocked out and trampled on. I’m ashamed that I did not do exactly that when given a chance at the New York protest, even though it would have meant hitting a woman. I have only my shock at seeing it as my excuse – I was momentarily stunned that I shared a species with such a person.
You really need to deal with your aggression.
Cochrane, Ontario, concerning VIA. All just regular folks – none of the above.
More to the point, the fringe does not define the middle.
New York. They’re different there.