Canuckistani Dopers: Bush's visit tomorrow

[Balduran]

@Brutus

5. People selling socialist and communist literature.

Feh. Even the Commies are trying to make a buck these days.
Well, I have to admit, a couple years ago when I went to the FTAA protest in Quebec city, I saw all those people on your list and they do make me chuckle. However, there were 50K people there and only a handful or your protestor archetypes.

I do think Canada should be involved in some capacity for rebuilding. I remember being involved in a model UN in high school. I was on the security council and a US sponsored proposal on peacekeeping was rejected. At the end the instructor asked why it was rejected. The answer: to make the US look bad. It was foolish back then when it was just a game. This is no game.
Free Mumia!

[Rune]

@matt_mcl

Um, a bigot is not someone who thinks that an individual is an idiot or an asshole on the basis of what that individual does. Or do you mean that if you personally dislike Carolyn Parrish, you are bigoted against everyone in Mississauga–Erindale?

The “bigot” was directed at the US=Third Reich & Jews=Nazis segment. Branding a whole nation the worst thing imaginable is bigotry.

@matt_mcl

So basically what you’re saying is that I should absent myself from a protest of several thousand people because a smattering of them are saying things I disagree with? That seems rather pointless to do. What we have in common is that we disapprove of Bush’s policies to some important extent, regardless of ancillary issues. Wouldn’t that be letting extremists get in the way of my democratic expression?

“Disagree” seems a rather mild term. I would expect you to try and deal with the nasty elements in your own midst before trying to expose the awfulness of somebody else. If for no other reason then out of self interest. Those idiots blot out whatever legitimate message you might else have. If you were protesting some Israeli settlements on the West Bank (entirely legitimate protest) for instance. Nazis don’t much like Jews on the West Bank either (and this you have in common with them), but if a group of Neo Nazis joined your protest with banners celebrating murder of Jews or some thing. I would imagine (or hope) you would take up this “support” very ill. The only difference between the Neo Nazis and the people carrying “David Star = Swastika” symbols is that one group is apparently accepted, the other is (hopefully) not.

@matt_mcl

I also have to say I’m confused by the people who think that protesting is a waste of time. Is it ever a waste of time to express your opinion in a democratic society? Is it a waste of time, for example, to write letters to the press or people in government? Public protest is founded on the same principle, and it doesn’t have to be civil disobedience or direct action to accomplish this.

I’m not saying protests is a waste of time. On the contrary – I think it’s an essential part of democracy. However the way I see it many of those demonstrations have degenerated into some formalistic, knee-jerk almost ritualistic repetition of old rehashed ideas (well the Raelian Movement was certainly a novel element…). This together with this obnoxious overblown ego (we The People - L’etat, c’est moi) and the idiot pseudo-Nazi groups just ruins it all. Further, I know it’s not possible to be very nuanced on these banners (and I know how you guys just love nuance), but I mean “Fuck Bush”?!. Yikes…

World Eater: you can skip the registration with bugmenot.com. I did.

Free Mumia!

[matt_mcl]

@Rune

"Disagree” seems a rather mild term. I would expect you to try and deal with the nasty elements in your own midst before trying to expose the awfulness of somebody else.

So how do you propose we do this? Beat them up?

[Muffin]

@matt_mcl

So how do you propose we do this? Beat them up?

Hey, if it works for manhattan . . . :rolleyes:

[Muffin]

Protest the protest’s fringe rather than protest the primary issue? That’s just plain dumb.

[matt_mcl]

Some people are apparently under the impression that protests are carefully choreographed events organized by coherent, hierarchical organizations who handpick the attendees or sell admissions or something, with their own intimidating security forces who can exclude or remove undesirable elements.

Nearly all protests are exactly what they look like: a group, often ad hoc, usually small and underfunded, calls a protest for a particular date and time and for a particular reason, puts up flyers, and then whoever wants to shows up.

If someone is behaving in an obnoxious fashion, the most people can do is move away, if for no other reason than to prevent themselves from being arrested/teargassed due to simple proximity; this does not always work.

For those whose obnoxious behaviour is not actually putting them in danger and/or attracting police attention, it’s usually decided that marginalizing the already marginal is not worth the disruption that would cause their peaceful protest.

[RickJay]

@Rune

If you attack a democratically elected foreign leader’s person, and not specific policies of his, and vilify the whole country, you object to democracy and reveal yourself a bigot.

This statement is simple nonsense. How does attacking a person in any way attack democracy? It’s like saying attacking a person is equivalent to attacking football. “You don’t like Brett Favre, so you must hate football.” “You don’t like J.K. Rowling, so you must hate books.”

Saying “George Bush is a moron” or “George Bush is evil” in no way logically translates to “I don’t like democracy.” You’re simply making stuff up.

There are a number of protesters with posters wishing or promising harm (torture, death) to Bush. Threatening the elected president of a democratic country is protesting democracy.

Well, no, it isn’t. Not that I like the idea of such sentiments (though I didn’t see that) but George Bush does not equal democracy. I challenge you to provide objective evidence that Canadians who don’t like George Bush demonstrate or claim to hold the opinion that democracy’s bad.

(Socialist Workers Party – put a National in front of that and all the Nazi imagery immediately becomes much more understandable)

And now you’ve lowered yourself to the same level as the “Bush=Hitler” crowd.

[Brutus]

Speaking of Hitler, don’t Canadians know what a Nazi swastika looks like? From Rune’s links on page 2, both are wrong (backwards). Don’t they have The History Channel up there?

[Kythereia]

We’re perfectly aware of what a swastika looks like, thank you.

[Brutus]

@Kythereia

We’re perfectly aware of what a swastika looks like, thank you.

So what was the intended message? Bush is a buddhist? Or just a bit too zealous to make those signs to worry about technical accuracy?

[Sam_Stone]

It’s tough to get your Swastikas right when you’re drawing lines between bong hits.

[Kythereia]

@Brutus

So what was the intended message? Bush is a buddhist? Or just a bit too zealous to make those signs to worry about technical accuracy?

Yeah, the comparison was uncalled for, and some Canadians are idiots. Some Americans, too.

But we’re not demonizing the entire American population just because a monkey somehow snuck into the Oval Office of the White House. So lay off the rational, intelligent protestors out there already. Not everyone was smoking a bong or carrying those signs.

[World_Eater]

You know the sad thing is you guys have no responses to actual issues so you’re reduced to ragging on a few protesters. If somehow you denigrate the protesters enough, everything they’re protesting against will be invalidated. :rolleyes:

[Sam_Stone]

Actually, the consensus seems to be that Bush’s visit was a hit. One thing Canadians like, and that’s a sense of humor. And Bush displayed it in large amounts during his visit. Even the Canadian papers had nice things to say about him, and he seems to have gotten pretty enthusiastic responses from the crowds where he spoke.

Some of his better lines:

"As a member of Canada’s Parliament said in the 1960s, 'The United States is our friend - whether we like it or not. "

“Paul Martin and I share a great vision for the future - two prosperous, independent nations joined together by the return of NHL hockey.”

“I realize, and many Americans realize, that it’s not always easy to sleep next to the elephant.”

“I frankly felt like the reception we received on the way in from the airport was very warm and hospitable, and I want to thank the Canadian people who came out to wave — with all five fingers.”

“I proudly ate some Alberta beef last night and I’m still standing.”

Bush was asked if proposed Canadian legislation to decriminalize marijuana would be a problem for the Canada-U.S. border.

“It will probably affect those who use marijuana a lot more than it will affect the border,” he said.

“I told Paul that I really have only one regret about this visit to Canada,” Bush smiled. “There’s a prominent citizen who endorsed me in the 2000 election, and I wanted a chance to finally thank him for that endorsement. I was hoping to meet Jean Poutine.”

This last needs an explanation. During the 2000 campaign, Rick Mercer, a Canadian comedian akin to Jon Stewart, asked Bush if he would like to thank “Prime Minister Jean Poutine” for his support. Bush said yes.

[World_Eater]

Nice, his lame wisecracks just solved all the problems in the world, time for a happy dance. :rolleyes:

[Kythereia]

It did go well–photo-ops and speechifying-wise. Bush did have some great lines, something I was pleasantly surprised by. Who’da thunk it?

Politics-wise? We’re still in stalemate, at best, and those are some dark clouds looming on the horizon.

[Gorsnak]

You know, I had grave reservations about most of Bush’s foreign policy and a fair bit of his domestic policy as well, but now that I see his speech-writers dug up some old amusing quips made by Canadians, and made up a few of their own, I’m completely on his side.

[furt]

@World Eater

I’m going to go ahead and start fantasizing about how to spend my $20.

Dime bag and a large pepperoni?

[furt]

Or better yet.

[Raygun99]

@Sam Stone

“I frankly felt like the reception we received on the way in from the airport was very warm and hospitable, and I want to thank the Canadian people who came out to wave — with all five fingers.”

Though the United States continues to flip us the Byrd.