The first warm day…I push the button for my A/C…and nothing happens! No cold air! So, I do some elemtary checking…the blower runs, all fuses are OK, the relay that controls the compressor is OK. So, I decide to try recharging the system…bingo! Things start cooling off…then I hear an ominous hiss! The refridgerent (don’t worry, its that non-harmful new stuff) is leaking from the comptressor, at the high side. An aluminum pipe enters he cmpressor, with a welded joint (whichis cracked-that’s where all the refridgereht has leaked out).
Could I take this part off and try having it reweleded ? It is aluminum. Or, could I patch the hole with high-strength epoxy? I’m sure this part is subjeced to high pressure.
Anyway, should I attempt this myself? or is it better to go to the dealer?
It might be possible to weld it, but have you checked to see how much the line is? It may be less than you think. I don’t know what kind of car you have, but most of these lines are relatively easy to change. You may want to replace the dryer as well, since the system has been opened to the outside. By the way, that refrigerant is not as harmless as you think. I’ve read by 2008, it will be replaced by another refrigerant, probably carbon dioxide. The European union has just passed a law which will basically outlaw it. It is less troublesome than R12, but evidently it still causes some global warming.
Just another thought: you might be able to find the part at a salvage yard, if you’re trying to save money. My guess is that the dealer is going to want to charge you an arm and a leg. A/C service is a major rip-off.
Why is this in the pit?
I understand you’re hot from no air-conditioning, but this still isn’t appropriate for the BBQ Pit. 
Do not try to patch it with epoxy. That will only waste time and it won’t work.
You could get it welded, but unless you do it yourself or you know the welder, the labour cost is likely to be more than a new pipe.
Alternately, junkyards might sell it you for $5-$10 or so.
If you’re desperate for cash, a piece of thick rubber hose held on with a stainless steel hose clamp can stop leaks temporarily.
I think that this can go into either GQ or MPSIMS. I’m moving it into GQ, there might be one or several factual answers to this problem.
Lynn
For the Straight Dope
As had been said you cn probably buy a hose at a junk yard, or for that matter buy a new hose. That will leave you with three problems
- How are you going to evacuate the air out of the system prior to the recharge? If this is not done, performance will suffer. Big time.
- Here in the states at least, it is not legal for anyone who is not trained and certified to buy R-134 (that non-harmful new stuff). That means that whatever you bought was probably not what designed to be used in the car. So what you say? Well you wind up creating what is called an A/C virus. The law says that any different refrigerant must have unique fittings, and be recovered in a separate machine. It is not legal to vent the stuff anymore. All of it, it must be recovered. Since there are any number of snake oil salesmen out there selling OG knows what as a “drop in” replacement for R-12, and R-134 no certification required, quality shops will use a refrigerant identifier like this one to avoid contamination of their equipment with the snake oil you were sold. You got a system full of R-22? Propane? Butane? Sorry buddy I’m not working on it.
- Even if you do get past problems 1 & 2, how do you know that there are not more leaks in the system? You just heard the big one, there might be 3 or 4 small ones.
My advice? Take it to a shop, A/C work is not a DIY project
AFAIK is is legal to buy 134a and I see it often in the auto store. (also IIRC it is a carcogen but doesn’t harm those friendly ozone in ideal lab conditions like the evil R12 does.)
R-22 is restricted and wouldn’t work at all as it doesn’t get cold enough for autos unless it is designed for it, propane would work as a direct replacement for R-12 but since it’s a smaller molicule will leak out of the hoses.
As for purging: you can fill the system with r-134a then circulate it then purge it via the valve then refill it a 2nd time. This will remove most of the air in the system.
Just because you can see it doesn’t mean that they can lawfully sell it to you. There are two separate certification exams for persons who handle CFCs, HCFCs, and HFCs. One is for those who service central AC systems, dehumidifiers, refrigerators, and cold water chillers. The second is for automotive AC systems. Every auto parts store has required me to show my operator’s license and vehicle certification card when buying refrigerant, and has entered the data into a logbook. The supply houses from which I buy refrigerant photocopy my license and certification, and keep it on file. I’m also obligated to maintain a log of all refrigerant purchases, and account for where and when it was used to charge a system, as well as the amount of product. As manufacturers move towards azeotropic and near azeotropic blends, they want all of us to attend seminars to get up to speed on the differences-I attended just such a seminar 2 weeks ago on R-410A at United Refrigeration.
Removing most of the air is NOT the solution. For what it’s worth, it’s not the air per se that is being evacuated-it’s the moisture in the air. Leaving moisture in the system can lead to the formation of acidic compounds, and also remember that moisture is not compressible-another reason why you want to evacuate any system being charged to 450 microns or better.
The EPA is capable of levying large fines to any person who vents refrigerant to the atmosphere, or services systems without proper certification.
Another thing-unless a different refrigerant is listed as a direct “drop-in” replacement, the system must be purged of all oil, as differing refrigerant oils are incompatible. Polyalkylglycol based refrigerants react negatively with mineral oil based refrigerants, basically ruining the compressor.
R-22 is designed for stationary units that have all-metal piping, no rubber of any sort. It will cool just fine in an automotive system for about three months, which is how long it usually takes for it to destroy the effectiveness of the seals and hoses. Replacing every seal and hose in the system is not cheap.
Propane might leak out? Who cares? The concern is it might EXPLODE. Automotive A/C systems work in an environment filled with ignition sources – hot exhaust parts, high voltage ignition, relays that arc, etc. Anyone who puts propane (or anything explosive) into an automotive A/C system should be shot.
Wha? Maybe it’s your state. I and 3-4 of my friends have bought R-134a. I see them in auto stores, walmarts and hell I think even the grocery stores around here carry r134.
Never been carded for it.
Very well that they sell it to you. (Their butts, not mine) How are you able to charge the vehicle system without proper equipment for evacuation and monitoring of the charge volume introduced? Although 134a is deemed non ozone depleting, it is still an EPA violation to vent any volume of it to the atmosphere, as well as the product which previosly occupied the system. Bottom line-if you’re not a trained technician-you’re breaking the law, period.
In reference to the observations of Gary T, the EPA does not recognize any hydrocarbon based refrigerant for use in automotive or truck air conditioning systems because it’s a disaster waiting to happen, as he said.
This board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance, not weasling around the truth.
Well, actually, I didn’t. I bought a can of r134a then found out my car was built in the last year before r12 was banned. My a/c came back to life on it’s own and I didn’t ask questions.
Anyway, I didn’t mean to offend, but the truth is one can readily buy r134a just about anywhere. While it may be illegal to use it, it might be possible that it is legal to buy it. It might be some stupid loophole in the law. My question is, do you know if the sale of r134a is specifically prohibited?
er ok. Sorry. That sounds snarky.
I should reword it.
I was wondering if there was some stupid loophole in the laws governing r134 allowing for the sale of r134 for prohibiting its usage.
er. but prohibiting…
There are no sales restrictions on R-134a. There are restrictions on R-12 – the purchaser must have the proper certification. Vendors who will only sell R-134a to certified purchasers do so not because they understand the law, but because they don’t understand the law. They avoid making a mistake not by knowing what they’re doing but by erring on the side of caution*.
The regulations requiring the possession and use of approved equipment to service automotive A/C systems apply to shops and technicians doing such service professionally. There are no regulations with enforcement provisions that apply to individuals working on their own cars. For that matter, there are no enforcement provisions that apply to individuals venting refrigerant to the atmosphere – it may be technically illegal, but there’s no fine or penalty for the do-it-yourselfer who does so.
There are new regulations being developed that may change the above.
Read about it here: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/justfax.html .
*There are likewise no requirements that leaks be fixed before recharging automotive A/C sytems. Nevertheless, some shops advise customers that they cannot recharge without fixing the leaks. Some shops no doubt don’t understand the law and are erring on the side of caution. Some, it seems, don’t care what the law is and take it upon themselves to establish this policy. Their reasons may be altruistic (let’s help the environment) or selfish (let’s help our bottom line).
Second here. I just went into the store and got it. No hassles.
I should clarify that my comments relate to Federal laws and EPA regulations. There may be state laws and regulations regarding the purchase of R-134a and the fixing of leaks before recharging.
This is true but misleading, from your link
so great you can legally buy it (right now any way) but you can’t legally use it. That is some catch that catch 22.
IIRC SCAQMD (California South Coast Air Quality management District) the local air quality cops have a rule preventing the sale of R-134 to the public. I tried to find it at their site, but it was not cooperating, sorry.
You are correct (as usual) on a federal level. The local laws in Cal are somewhat more restrictive, IIRC. Howevere as I mentioned I can’t get the AQMD site to cooperate.
Even if it is perfectly legal to buy R-134 by the keg, it without proper equipment there is no way to get a quality job done. I stand by my previous comment that A/C is not a DIY job.