Car repair question

In My Humble Opinion
1

I had my car into the shop last month for some pretty expensive repairs, more than the car is worth, but I was hoping to get another ten or twenty thousand miles on it while I saved up for a new one, but now it’s back in the shop and they want another $900, with no guarantee that will fix it. I am going to have to bite the bullet and buy now, I guess, but my question is about whether or not they did the repair right last time, or if they should have been able to foresee the problem I’m having now.

One of the things they did last time was replace the spark plugs and oil seals. Now they are telling me that one of the coils has gone, and the rest are also leaking, and can’t be repaired without machining heads, blah blah blah, techity tech tech.

My question is shouldn’t they have been able to tell that those seals were bad when they changed the spark plugs and did their multi-point inspection? Should I be furious, or just fatalistic here?

2

I’m sorry to say that what you’ve related doesn’t make much sense, and there’s not enough understandable info to even begin to answer your question.

Replacing spark plugs is a basic maintenance procedure (or if it’s put off way too long it can end up being a repair for a problem).

“Replace the oil seals” is too vague, as there are several oil seals. It’s like saying “open the window in the house,” which leads to the question WHICH window? So exactly WHICH oil seals were replaced?

I assume an ignition coil has failed. As far as coils leaking, while that might be possible it’s quite rare, and even then doesn’t necessarily mean they need to be replaced. And I’m not seeing how any of this relates to machining cylinder heads, which is typical in cases of a blown head gasket and/or worn or faulty engine valves.

I’d be happy to try to offer some help, but I need some info:

What is the year, make, model, and engine size of the vehicle?

What symptom(s) did you observe before the first repair (plugs & seals). Was anything done besides what you mentioned? Was there any improvement after the work was done?

What symptom(s) are you observing now?

Exactly what repairs are being suggested now?

3

It’s a 2007 Hyundai Accent. It’s been a pretty decent car for the most part, but the coils have been an issue since it hit about 60K miles, and I’ve had to have several of them replaced.

Last month a lot went wrong at once. First it just didn’t seem to be getting power during acceleration, and I took it by my oil change place for a quick and dirty diagnosis. They said the transmission was going. I meant to take it to a transmission shop, but before I could get there, the engine started running rough and knocking, and the power steering started to give me trouble, so I took it to the dealer. They changed the spark plugs and did a tuneup, did a “Three part fuel induction service”, a ‘Carbon Cleaner’, replaced Valve Gasket Covers, Gasket Rocker covers, Replaced the Rack and Pinion Assy. Replaced the Drive Belt, Replaced a bet on the power steering pump, and a hose on the power steering pump.

A week ago, it started losing power during acceleration again. Just seemed like it wasn’t getting power, and when I forced it up to 60mph on the expressway, the check engine light came on.
I took it back and they first said they just needed to replace the #3 coil pack, then they called me back and said that oil was leaking into all the spark plugs and that they couldn’t fix it for less than $900.

Is the dealer just trying to skin me? Again? Should I take it for a second opinion? It’s got 175K miles. I would really like to be able to get 10K more, but I can’t have my car breaking down or constantly in the shop. I need a reliable car for my work.

4

“Oil leaking into the spark plugs” sounds like tube seals.

5

Knocking in the engine is usuallyeither bad timing, bad spark plugs, bad fuel pump, filter, or injectors, or all of the above. It also causes loss of acceleration, the engine crapping out, no power, and jumping. Fix for all of those combined is usually 1200 or less.
Gasket leaks are a major thing, it can cause severe damage to the engine later for a multitude of reasons, but only after some time, and there are dead giveaways to that (thick white smoke or black smoke in the exhaust, check your radiator and make sure there is no oil in there, or coolant in the oil etc…) If the engine is that damaged, get a new car, same goes for the transmission, most places will not rebuild for you but suggest another, and it will never (highly unlikely) work the same as the original, not to mention way to expensive, not worth the time and money. Another reason to get a new car.

Methinks they are trying to skin you here. It seems as if they are replacing heavily worn stuff(this is fine, if you asked for it), instead of the actual culprit, which is likely the fuel delivery system, in my opinion of course.

I had a similar situation with my car, at about 98K on it. Loss of power all the time, engine crapping out, I had the fuel pump replaced, and I personally cleaned and regapped my spark plugs, replaced one fuel injector, That cost me just under 500 and the car is at 111K now with no problems. Its a 2002. I also had a leaking power steering system, it cost me less than $20 to fix that myself, took ten minutes.

The “oil leaking into the spark plugs” thing is a mystery. That makes absolutely no sense, Oil cannot leak into them, nor the sockets where they are housed. Maybe somehow sprayed, but i don’t believe that. Depends on the model though, I’m just pretty good with Chevy’s. Oil usually sits at the lower part of the engine, flung around a bit inside too, but spark plugs are either on the top or top/side AFAIK. The only way that could happen is if some gaskets were improperly place, and if they replaced them or didn’t check at all, the mechanic sucks.

6

I suggest find another shop. If oil is leaking onto the spark plugs, that can only come from the plug well seals (what FoieGrasIsEvil mentioned). It would have been obvious when replacing the spark plugs, and those seals should have been replaced along with the valve cover gasket. Furthermore, while it’s messy it does not affect the operation of the spark plugs or the performance of the engine.

If they’re talking about the plugs being oil fouled (which is quite different from being leaked on), then the repair is more expensive but again should have been obvious when the plugs were replaced.

I still don’t know exactly what repairs they’ve suggested for $900 (what about machining the head, etc.?), but from what you’ve described it sounds like you’re dealing with incompetence, dishonesty, or both.

Sounds like it, can’t be sure, and absolutely.

7

SOME gasket leaks are major, others can be rather minor. It makes a huge difference exactly which gasket is leaking, and how badly it’s leaking.

This is absolutely wrong. On some engine designs (including this one), there can most certainly be oil leaking into the spark plug wells and onto the plugs.

8

to this point, this is what the cam cover gasket set looks like for this car. Those little rings are what seal off the spark plug wells, and are frequent sources of leaks. This shouldn’t cost $900 to replace.

the ignition coils themselves can’t leak; they’re typically epoxy potted and there’s no fluid inside them.

9

I would bet money he is talking about valve seal being bad and fowling the plugs.

10

I’m too chicken to make a guess. I’ll just duck out.

11

You turkey.

12

That’s a reasonable guess, and it crossed my mind too. If that’s what it is, those old plugs would have been quite noticeably fouled. Any mechanic worth his salt would have seen it and known that the new plugs would get fouled in short order, and right then and there would have been the time to bring it up to the customer, BEFORE replacing the plugs. It would also behoove the shop to make sure the problem was leaking valve stem seals and not worn piston oil rings, but if they missed the fouled plugs they probably wouldn’t know how to determine that.

If the above scenario is the case, I’d say a complaint to Hyundai Customer Service is in order, and a refund or significant discount – or even free further repair – is called for.

13

Quack!

14

A 10 year old Hyundai with 175k miles on it? Just buy a newer car.

15

Yeah, like I said, I’m more of a Chevy person, never seen that happen, but it does depend on the type of engine or car. But as noted, if that is the case, the spark plug wells should have been checked. Fix that, you can even do it yourself in about an hour or so with the correct parts. Second Opinion is a must. I still stick with my opinion on the fuel system issue.

You stated, “three part fuel induction service” which is a clever way of saying “flushing and running cleaner through the fuel system and replacing the fuel” It’s complete crap and a money grab by cheating mechanics. Get a second opinion for sure. A cleaned fuel system will not magically repair fouled injectors, pump, or filter (if its not mounted in the tank that is, thats a pain in the ass).

16

what’s your experiences with worn rings? On the engines I’m familiar with which are known for consuming oil with age (Jeep 4.2/4.0, Navistar 6.9/7.3 IDI diesels) the root cause is cylinder taper leading to excessive blow-by. The first noticeable symptom is an oil-soaked air filter (Jeep) or oil-wet intake manifold (Navistar.)

17

Sounds like when your car lit then check engine light and you took it in, they read the code and you were probably getting a general misfire code or a misfire code on number 3 cylinder. So they diagnosed that as a bad coil pack.

Could be bad O2 sensor, or a bad crankshaft positioning sensor. Both (or either) can throw off the air/fuel ratio and lead to lack of power, running rough, etc. Might want to start here, as they’re generally a cheap and quick fix.

Misfires (if that’s what this is) can be hard to chase down, because they can be fuel, timing, electrical, just about anything.

Good luck. Hope you find out what the problem is.

18

Most of the ones I saw had oil control rings that were stuck collapsed into their grooves, rendering them useless. This would have been on various foreign cars well over 20 years ago.

19

Most of the oil soaked air filters were caused by excessive blow by and raw oil blowing up through the pcv valve.

20

Easy for some to say, but this may not be needed. A good, well-maintained car can easily last 200,000 or more without major engine tear downs.

Is the dealer trying to skin you? Hard to tell in this scenario but good troubleshooting skills can be hard to find. In a car this old there will be many things that could be fixed, but the key question is, if they fix X, Y, and Z will that address the problem? With poor troubleshooting skills the mechanic can be chasing many things they say need to be done but will never address the problem. And they can also make a seemingly good argument for fixing those things, and you keep flushing money down the drain.

As said earlier, some leaks aren’t a big deal, while others are.

Find a reputable and trustworthy mechanic, one with good troubleshooting skills. For trickier problems, avoid larger shops with many mechanics where you don’t know who will do the troubleshooting. For straightforward issues where you’re certain the fix will correct a problem, you can go to a larger shop or a simple oil change place for repair.