Car warranty questions....Help!

Factual Questions
1

So here’s the deal. I have a 2003 Nissan Sentra with exactly 30k miles on it. The other day it was running rough and my Service Engine Soon light came on. I called the dealership while I was driving and went and dropped the car off. They told me they’d call as soon as they could. They called be back around an hour later asking me if I knew why there was oil all over the engine. I had no idea, so they said they’d keep looking. They called again and said that the “code” was the cam sensor, which needed replaced. I told them to go ahead, and also to do the 30k service on the car.

They called back saying that they had done all of that, but the car started running rough again, so it wasn’t going to be ready until at least the next day. The next time they called, it was because they needed authorization to do an entire engine tear down to see why it was failing. They said it wouldn’t even turn over anymore! Long story short, they’re now saying that the engine was running too hot and there are metal shavings from the cam and the cylinders all in the engine and in the exhaust system. I need a total new engine, computer, and catalytic converter and none of it is going to be covered under warrenty since it seems to be due to lack of maintenance. My bumper to bumper expired due to time in June. I’m not the most dilligent 3000 mile oil change guy, but I do get it done. I don’t have any of the paperwork proving it though.

I went from around $400 worth of work to a now quoted $6500 plus tax. I’m kind of stymied, as $6500 is what we refer to around my house as a whole shit ton of money. What should I do? I only owe around 9k on the car as a whole. Can I argue with them about it not being covered? 30k in 3 years isn’t really pounding the car to death, you know? I’m kind of freaking out, so any help would be awesome.

2

Most car (trucks may be different) service intervals are closer to 5000 miles or above these days. The 3000 mile service interval is not a warranty requirement on most cars. If you have your oil changed at the same place most oil change places can print out a history for you and that will show the mile intervals. I you didn’t even hit the service intervals recommended by the manual you abused the car, and are probably SOL, unless there is some sort of longer drivetrain warranty that would cover the engine mechanisms.

What does your manual say re intervals?

3

I would imagine you are well within recommended service intervals, as I had a 2001 Sentra (great car, btw), and the recommended oil change interval was 7,500 miles.

I’d call Nissan corporate…they usually don’t like pissed off customers and may step in on your behalf.

4

Escalate.

If you’ve been talking to a tech, ask for the service manager. If he says no, talk to the dealership’s general manager. Then go to the Nissan regional manager, if necessary. This should be covered, IMHO.

Be calm but firm in asserting that this problem is not the result of abuse and provide whatever evidence you can that you have changed the oil at least once or twice in the past few years. Fresh oil at 10,000 and 20,000 miles should have been plenty, even if the manual calls for more frequent changes.

Also, go online and see if there have been any recalls on this car, and specifically the engine. If there haven’t been any recalls, you might see if you can find a Nissan forum and ask around there for similar experiences. You should also be able to find out about this dealership’s track record at someplace like Car Talk’s Mechan-X Files.

Good luck.

5

2003 Nissan Sentra recalls.

None of them appear relevant, however. I agree with commasense above; there most likely is a serious problem unrelated to maintenance issues here. Even old oil should provide enough lubrication to prevent metal shavings. If the oil pressure light never came on, then the pump was working, but something must have been blocking the oil channels.

6

Damn hamster ate my post.

OK, the laws in your state may (and probably do) vary. In California you would have a case to take to the BAR
But before I go there, when dealing with car warranties, if there is a possibility that the damage was related to a lack of maintenance, it is up to the owner to provide proof of such maintenance.
If you went to one or two shops to have your oil changes done, they go there and ask them to pull your file.
If you went to a different place every time, good luck.
Let this be a lesson. In the future save those work orders. Make sure that each one has both the date and the mileage listed. Also it is a great idea to have the service book filled out and stamped each time the car is serviced. Doing these things will both help you with warranty issues, but will increase the value of your car when it comes time to sell it.

Getting back to your problem, I would approach it this way. What I am suggesting is a bit of a Hail Mary play, but it is either this or pony up 6500 dead presidents.
Mr. Service manager, I am having a hard time understanding exactly what you are telling me here. The facts are this:
A) I brought my car to you in running condition
B) At no time during the 30,000 miles that I have driven the car has the low oil pressure light been on.
C) The engine is no longer running
D) Your mechanic misdiagnosed my problem as a bad cam sensor.
E) Your mechanic went ahead and did the gravy work*

In light of the above facts I have a number of questions for you Mr. Service Manager:

  1. Why did your mechanic misdiagnosis the cam position sensor as being the problem?
  2. Why did he not determine the root cause of the poor running before doing the 30K service?
  3. Assuming that your mechanic is not blind, when he went to dump the old oil, he should have seen the metal that you now claim is in the oil. Why did he not stop right then and there, save a sample of the oil, and have you call me? Don’t forget Mr. Service Manager that the engine was still running at this point.***
  4. Can you point me to a Nissan TSB or piece of service literature that says that engine damaged due to a lack of lubrication requires a new catalytic converter?
  5. If there was oil all over the top of the engine as claimed, why was I not given a estimate for the replacement of whatever was causing the leak, when I was given the estimate for the cam position sensor, and before your employee blew up my engine?
  6. If the engine overheated as claimed, then what was the root cause of the overheating? Why have I not been given an estimate for the correction of this out of line condition, before your employee destroyed my engine?
  7. Since I have never seen the oil pressure light come on while driving or the temp gauge go up, why did my engine blow?

I have discussed this with a professional technician [that would be me] and it is his opinion that your mechanic screwed up the work on the car, possibly leaving the old oil filter gasket in place during the filter change** Then during the test drive the double gasket blew out and dumped all the oil, and now you are trying to get me to pay for your employee’s screw-up.

I suggest that you might want to consider doing the right thing here Mr. Service Manager. The bottom line is my running car no longer runs after your employee worked on it. The professional technician that I conferred with is of the opinion that you must always diagnosis the poor running condition first To do the gravy work first is just not professional.

I don’t want to take you to court over this, but I will if you will if you don’t make this right.
If you have an attorney friend the above might be even more effective on their letterhead.
Like I said up front, it is a long shot, but it is a shot.
If you do have to put an engine in the car, consider an junkyard engine. Or consider having someone else do the work.

*Go ahead and use that exact term, trust me, he will know what you are talking about. For you dopers at home in the auto business gravy is a term that describes a profitable easy job. A 30K is gravy, a check engine light, not so much.

** Not an uncommon problem on Nissan cars, and other from Japan. When removing the filter o-ring sticks to the block. The new filter (with a new o-ring) screws over the top. A few miles later the double gasket blows out, all the oil is dumped and engine goes BOOM very shortly thereafter.

7

Excellent post, Rick. Fortunately, my Nissan is still running fine (knock wood) after four years of…ahem…spirited driving.

My car is now well out of warranty but if I ever have a similar problem, I’ll be in touch with you, Rick.

8

I agree that you should escalate but I wouldn’t waste any more time at the dealership, go right to Nissan’s customer relations. They are the ones who have authority to give you warranty service. The dealer generally likes to give warranty service because they get paid for it. If they said no, it may be because they do not want to get demerits from Nissan for fixing stuff that shouldn’t be under warranty.

9

A lot of this doesn’t make sense. I have to assume you heard and understood correctly, and are not omitting critical info.

Why ask you? Now, if there’s no immediately obvious leak they might wonder if you spilled some while adding oil. But once they’ve established that you didn’t know why the oil was there, it behooves them to find out. After all, they brought the matter to light. Did they ever tell you anything to explain this?

Which would explain why the SES light was on, but might or might not explain why the engine was running rough. Did they say this was related to the rough running, and if not did they say anything about what was causing that?

Again? As in after the repair and service it was running okay, then relapsed? Or did the rough running never cease?

This sounds like major mechanical trouble - an engine that won’t turn over (=can’t be rotated/cranked by the starter) is siezed or nearly so. It’s not impossible that this symptom legitimately first appeared while they happened to have the car, but it sure sounds suspicious. It’s not the kind of thing a failed sensor would cause, and it’s extremely unlikely on a car with only 30K miles - even one that hadn’t had one oil change during that period.

That’s a bolt out of the blue. How would the engine have been running hot without your noticing it, and without their noticing it before this point?

Exhaust system? In 30+ plus years of doing professional auto repair, I have never heard of, much less seen, metal shavings from internal engine parts getting into the exhaust system. I’d love to hear an explanation for that one.

And just how does it seem to be due to that (what evidence points to that conclusion)?

I’m wondering if the oil on the engine was due to leakage. And I’m further wondering if thus the engine oil level was too low, which could cause the mechanical problems they described. If this is the case, I imagine you’re SOL, as it is the owner’s responsibility to keep enough oil in the engine. But in this scenario, I’ve got to wonder why they didn’t pursue the leakage angle, and why they didn’t mention the engine being low on oil. Oil all over the engine is a pretty big clue - it has to come from somewhere, and if it came from the engine (i.e., wasn’t spilled on it) there has to be less in the engine (until it’s topped up).

In a nutshell, if the engine was low on oil, why didn’t they tell you, and if it wasn’t, how did it get into such a dire condition? Nothing I’ve read so far even comes close to answering these questions. Something doesn’t smell right.

10

Wait a minute - needs a new computer? Failed sensors don’t harm computers. Mechanical engine failure doesn’t harm computers. Why the hell would it need a new computer?

That is, unless there was serious misdiagnosis, they damaged it, or they’re lying and trying to milk you for all they can get.

I can’t say for certain that there’s serious incompetence and/or scamming going on here, but it sure looks like it.

11

Geez, how did I miss the computer?
Boy Gary T is correct, it really sounds like the mechanic has his parts throwing arm warmed up and is throwing parts at your car right and left.
In twenty minutes or twenty thousand dollars he can fix anything. :dubious:

:smack: I forgot the footnote.
*** This question just might be the box that buries their case. The only responses I can think of are:

  1. There was no metal visible when we dumped the oil. OK, then YOUR employee blew the engine.
  2. My technician saw the metal, but did nothing. OK, it is now offical that your employee is an idiot. Why don’t you employee professional technicians instead of Iffy Lube rejects?
  3. My technician never changed the oil. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t an oil change part of the 30K that you did? Isn’t it fraud in this state to charge for repairs that were never done?

As far as going to Nissan coroprate, if your car is out of warranty, I doubt they will do much. You might do a lot better calling the consumer affairs reporter at a local TV station.

12

Two things,
first off what is happening on this? The teeming millions want to know.

Secondly, if the car needs a converter or ECM those should be covered under the emissions warranty, which is longer than the standard warranty (CA emissions warranty is 7 years 70,000 miles, not sure about the rest of the country)
You might want to ask if the converter and ECM are covered under the emissions warranty. If the service manager says no due to an overheat condition, call bullshit, and ask him to show you in your owners manual where they have that out. (trust me they don’t)

13

What is the warrenty on that car??

14

Hamsters got my last post. I’ve been escalating this as far as I can…from service manager to general manager to Nissan corporate and they’re pretty steadfast that the failures are due to lack of upkeep and if I don’t have proof (I called and can’t find more than two oil changes ever), well it’s DIAF Cluricaun. (I always did if on the fly damn it).

I can’t thank **Rick ** and **GaryT ** enough for your input. At least I could make an informed statement when I talked after you guys. Either of you make it out this way and it’s drinks on me.

They pretty much seemed to anticipate all of your advice and blocked me 100% all the time. What they say is that the first code and fix was the standard for what they encountered, and then when that didn’t work they had to keep going. There were’nt metal shavings in the oil because there’s a magnet in the oil pan to collect such things, the oil on the engine doesn’t seem to be due to a leak, and that’s what fried the computer too. The sludge in the engine and the computer reports of high temps tell them all they want to know about the car being run consistently low on oil.
It’s not a manufacturing defect, it’s an owner defect. At this point, after several days of arguments and threats I’m about done with this avenue. I’m no quitter, but I need a car so I’m going to bend over a bit and spend some cash.

Chalk it up to lesson learned. All my service from now on will be at the dealership and I’ll be in there every 3000 miles. I’m not doing the repairs, I’m going to buy a new car. I don’t want a salvage title on my car, so I’m going to pay off the loan and just start over. It’s painful as all get out, but sometimes being a grown up sucks. I fought the man, and the man just has more time and weapons at his disposal. Now my choice is to see what they’ll give me in terms of a trade in, or get an unsecured line of credit to knock the interest rate down. I’ll have a new car in the next few days and I’m going to baby the shit out of this one.

15

Sorry, I had the standard 3 years 36k bumper to bumper, and then 5 year 75k extended warranty. :mad:

16

I’m sorry to hear about that, Cluricaun.

I just want to say that, regardless of what happens from here, I don’t think you need to go to the extreme of having all service done at the dealership. (Especially not this dealership, which seems to have shown itself to be a little slimy.) That would be a very expensive route. Just make a point of keeping all your service records, wherever you have the work done.

I put all my automotive receipts in a folder. Fortunately, I haven’t needed to do so, but if I had to, I could even document oil changes I’ve done myself: I keep all credit/debit card receipts and could show when I’ve bought five quarts of oil along with the entries in my maintenance spreadsheet.

(Okay, I admit that because of all the track work I do, I probably keep more detailed records of everything I do or have done to the car than most people. Tires, brake pads, rotors, etc., as well everything I spend on track events.)

But keeping the basic records wouldn’t be all that tough, and a lot cheaper than having all work done at the dealership. IMHO.

17

You have extended coverage and they are refusing? :mad: I’m a Finance Manager for an auto dealership. I sell warranties, and this makes me mad! None of the products I sell require proof of maintenance. In fact the company that I work for would have replaced your engine as a good faith gesture because your car is not that far out of manufacturer’s limited warranty.

What are the terms of your extended warranty?

I would trade this car in on a new one before I put a new engine in it. If you do that, be sure to cancel the extended warranty that you bought. Hopefully you will be entitled to some portion of a refund. Then if you buy extended warranty again, choose a term more suited to your actual driving habits, which seem to be about 10K miles per year. Unless of course those have changed. If you want 5 years of coverage, get a 5 year/50K.

I’m sorry this happened to you and I hope you get some resolution soon.

18

No problem buddy, I wish I could have helped more.

Several thing here. First off Nissan had a problem with their cam timing slipping, and setting cam position sensor codes. If the cam slipped far enough it could lock the engine. I think this was more an issue with the cars built in the late 90’s but it could have extended beyond that point. You said in your OP that they stated there was metal shaving in the engine. If there were and they were aluminum the magnet would not have caught them. If they were steel, then it is even more obvious when you pull the drain plug, as it will have a beard of metal on it. My comments about their employees stands. So Sparky (the dealer guy not you) if the oil isn’t from a leak could you tell me just where in the Sam Hell you think it came from? Saudi Arabia is not an acceptable answer. There are only four ways you can get oil all over the outside of the engine

  1. Leak
  2. Spill when filling (unless Helen Keller was doing the pouring this will only be a small amount)
  3. Leave the oil cap off
  4. Park over a gushing oil well in your back yard. (See opening credits of the Beverly Hillbillies)
    An oil leak fried the computer? And it isn’t covered? I feel like I have to sneeze ah, ah, ah
    Bullshit
    Godamn, if you have a computer inside the engine room, you have to be aware that oil leaks happen. If you are too stupid to seal it against water and oil intrusion, then you deserve to have said computer shoved up your ass by a pissed of customer. Even if the oil leak did fry the computer (yeah right), IIRC the emissions warranty does not give them an out here. READ your warranty booklet, the section on the emission warranty, what is covered, and what is excluded. I got five bucks that says there is no exclusion for an oil leak. Also when you get a chance ask them just where exactly the computer is located on your car. If the answer comes back as anything except the engine room, remind them they go to hell for lying, just the same as they do for stealing.
    Oil sludge? When you a quick Google on Oil sludge +Nissan, you get 74,000+ hits. Think there is a problem? I do. Sludge is an ongoing industry problem even with engines that get regular oil changes. Some cars are way more prone to sludging than others. My car brand does not have a large problem with sludging, but there are a few. Other brands see this on a daily basis. On the cars I work on it seems to be a greater problem in cold weather climates then warm. (I do hear much about it here in LA, but I do hear about it in Canada.)
    Computer reports of high temps? Ask them if there was a fault code set for this, and ask them for the code (it may read P0XXXX, or some other format) get me the code, and I will get it translated. Off the top of my head, I do not know of any car that sets a high engine temp code. I’m not a Nissan tech, but I am an ASE mater Automotive Technician and have been in this business for over 30 years. If they say there is no high temp code, then ask them how they know the car was overheated? Ask for a copy of the printout.
    BTW looking over the Google results on oil sludge I came across this post (3rd comment down)

Now I do not know if this guy knows his ass from 3rd base, but what he describes pretty much matches exactly what happened to you.

I am not convinced that it is an owner defect. Speaking as a former flat rate technician I never had a problem telling a customer that they fucked up when they did. I am not convinced that you screwed up. (Other that you forgot to keep your oil change receipts) :rolleyes:

First off you don’t have to do the services at the dealer. Just keep the damn receipts m’kay?
Unless the laws in Il. are a lot different than here in California, putting in a used engine does not mean you have a salvage title.
Please tell me I am reading the line about trade in wrong. Please tell me you do not intend to spend another dime with these assholes. In this case assholes = Nissan + this dealer

I really think you should bundle up all the paperwork, print out this thread and do a consult with an attorney that specializes in auto lemon law. They might give you the first consult free. It is worth an hour or two of your time. Do this before you dispose of the car. I have seen cases a lot weaker than this one go for big bucks.
Did I mention, next time KEEP YOUR RECEIPTS?
:slight_smile:

19

Cluricaun, for what it’s worth, point for point Rick is absolutely right. You can take his advice in this matter to the bank.

20

You know what I’d do? I’d pay for the repairs with myt credit card. Then I’d dispute it. I’d get a trusted mechanic like Rick to view all the details and write a letter to your credit card company, showing why the mechanics and the dealer and the mfr are wrong.

Then, I’d take them to small claims court and sue for the money (otherwise, they could possibly repo your car for non-payment) and bring said trusty mechanic to court with you to dispute everything the dealership says.

And yes, I’d never, ever spend another dime at that dealership, or Nissan, again.