Isn’t there a simple answer to the literature v. fraud debate? Cecil mentions that Castaneda got his Ph.D. for Journey to Ixtlan. From what faculty at UCLA?
If he got the Ph.D. in anthropology or a related subject, then he’s purporting to say that the events are true and his writing about it is valid scholarship. If that is not correct, as de Mille argues, then Castenada is a liar and an academic fraud.
If he got it from a literature faculty at UCLA, then he’s not a fraud and bgravengood’s arguments about the literary merits of the books stand.
[BTW - this column seems to have attracted several newcomers with interesting things to say. Welcome to the SDMB!]
Castaneda had a Master’s and Ph.D. in Anthropology from UCLA.
My search for that info comes up with that The Teachings of Don Juan was his Master’s thesis/capstone project.
The mid/late-70s head of the Department, Jacques Maquet, seems to have been among the first to get uneasy. However it seems that in the course of over a decade in UCLA Grad School Castaneda did do a large amount of legit ethnographic research in his chosen subjects, so the books could pass as a sort of Castaneda-original “synthesis” of various concepts he studied. Still, that’s not how they were presented. This does not necessarily abridge the impact, sincerity, scope, potential validity or usefulness of his insights, which were many, but it does leave a sour academic aftertaste – and some heavy questions about the state of the late-60s/early 70s UCLA Anthropology Department.
He was friendly with young girls, took pictures of some of them, and even in a few cases took nude pictures of them, all of which he destroyed later (or planned to). All of this was with the permission of and usually the supervision of the girls’ parents. There’s no evidence whatsoever that he was having sex with underage females. And if you’re going to claim, “Oh, but I was talking about his desires, not his actions,” let me point out that we know no more about Carroll’s desires than we do about your desires. In any case, pedophilia is a crime only when it comes to actions, not just desires.
Gee… we’ve been grabbing that ‘cubic centimeter of chance’ when one presents itself; if, while she was growing up, our daughter was a tad unruly, we’d have her scared back into good citizenship by an indigent, smelly, wino; we habitually choose the ‘path with a heart’; we do daily battle at the workplace with worthy adversaries. Dang, we’re going to have to re-read those tomes!!!
What are you talking about? I thought my point was clear enough. It’s not a crime just to desire to have sex with underage persons. It’s only a crime when one actually does have sex with an underage person. I added this caveat because I thought someone was going to come up with the quibble that they could figure out what Carroll wanted to do with these young girls based on the fact that he spent time doing other things with them. First, no, you can’t say for certain that you know what Carroll’s desires were. Second, even if we knew what his desires were, that doesn’t make him a pedophile under the law. He would only be a pedophile for legal purposes if he actually had sex with underage persons.
The column on CARLOS CASTANEDA by cecil adams is exactly 180 degrees from the truth. I am a practicing shaman who has over twenty years experience with the teachings detailed by Carlos Castaneda. I have experienced much of the phenomenon described in his many books…and then some. All of these experiences have been without any drugs of any kind.
The problem with Mr. Adams’s column rests in the research that he quotes in his attempt to establish some measure of expertise and creditability for his hypothesis. The judgements rendered in this column, and from the other “experts” detailed therein, share a common
basis…the judgements are made from outside the paradigm being studied, rather than inside. Approaching any form of shamanism, sorcery, or any other similar form of indigenous practice which deals with the spirit world from outside the experience would be like attempting to understand the Rubic’s Cube by working with Tinker Toys. The truths discovered by experiencing multi-dimensional worlds, as described in the Castaneda books, cannot be rationally explained through some Western scientific, intellectual belief system generated from outside the arena.
We are multi-dimensional beings, living in a multi-dimensional world, created by a multi-dimensional Creator. The full scope of the human potential, together with the cognitive abilities inherent in the human spirit, that is unleashed when these three aspects of “non-reality” interlock, is far from mainstream logic and/or rational thought of the Western mind. However, as history has always repeated, when someone steps onto the stage of human evolution and points to a different direction, the mainstream status quo tends to react in violent opposition with rational opinions carefully crafted to keep their secure belief systems firmly intact. The ego immediately sets up a defense.
Carlos Castaneda had a destiny to open the door so that others could follow. He wrote his observations as they occurred, leaving the readers to form their own opinions as to the merit or non-merit of the work. The doors that he has opened, by venturing into these “other worlds”, has caused memory to awaken in many who now explore these multi-dimensional worlds for a better understanding as to who we humans are, what this living planet is about, and how all of this fits within the scheme of the Creator. The pathology of today’s social structure surely cannot be accepted by even the most jaded intellectual as being in alignment with the highest intent of the Creator for this planet and His children. Perhaps the true “con job” and “hoax” for us lies within this pathology that the mainstream struggles to defend. Perhaps the “spin” of the “experts” has been based upon the authoritative quotations of the “spin” of the other “experts” and this layering upon layering has come to the point where this diluted symbolism is all we have left to represent the truth. Perhaps it takes the daring of a few “lost souls” to venture outside of the matrix of today’s social pathology into the other worlds of non-reality in order to bring back the true essence of divine truth to the human consciousness.
Keeping the dream alive requires more than contrived commitment and superficial philosophies. It demands sacrifice, discipline, forbearance, willful intent, and a supreme love of the Creator and all that He desires for his “lost souls”. Most of the “baby boomers” who found themselves enchanted with the Castaneda books, yet not fully able to understand the context of its substance and how it fit into today’s world, have moved away from this dream and into the mainstream. The surrender to the institutionalized, corporate homogeneity of carefully structured collective de-sensitivity to the truth of our true spirit selves has engulfed our weak wills. However, for a few of us “nut jobs”, the fight to command Light into the dark spaces of our consciousness and revive the promise of the Creator’s dream for his children remains a high priority within our lives. (Although, I’ll grant you, it’s not exactly a smart career choice).
Deniability and loss of personal responsibility is a disease that has pervaded our culture and forced us to surrender our truths to those who put their personal gains above the collective welfare. However, no amount of deniability or refusal to accept personal responsibility for our souls evolution can override the truth of our interlocking multi-dimensional selves with Creation. The truth of this natural condition will eventually reach a state of presence so intense that it will be impossible to deny its existence…most likely around 2012. The changes that will occur from this “light storm” will forever transform our lives and our consciousness, especially in our relationship with our Creator. The beginning of this process and the opportunity for human beings to prepare for this process may well be traced back to an adventurous anthropology student who walked into another world and received teachings that were meant to awaken the human to its condition.
I would stongly echo StongHorse’s response. CoolestWhiteBoy, thanks for the Jung add on. I would also add Freud into the mix. His work also lends to the mythological realm, however, not as eloquent as Jung. There are many dichotomies in our lives, all ultimately pointing to the same thing - a balance. Myth is just another piece of the whole. Now if Castaneda writes it as fact, what of all other traditions/myths that get orally passed down? Eventually, through generations, the origins are lost - but it still does not negate the occurrence.
You have an interesting angle, stronghorse, but I don’t believe Cecil was attacking Castaneda’s belief system. Rather, he was answering a fairly simple question – did Castaneda personally experience the events portrayed in his books, or were they fictionalized accounts? While Cecil is surely a skeptic, I don’t see him attacking any of Castaneda’s beliefs; he’s simply questioning the authoring process of the books themselves.
Shame on Cecil! How dare he slam the reputation of a man who has done more for anthropology than anyone in the last 50 yrs! Castenada absolutely blew the lid off anything compiled on the Toltec “Paradigm”, if you will and anyone with an ounce of understanding from “The Teachings” knows that Carlos simply lived as he was taught…he erased Personal History and convinced everyone in the Media he was a fraud! and that was ideally to his advantage! I think Mr Adams had better go back and read ALL Castenadas bibliography…and read it TWICE. It is dumbfounding how anyone could think this made up by one persons imagination.
Stunned by Cecil,
Teritine
stronghorse, the question was not about any revelations of inner truths from multi-dimensional worlds, the question was did Castenada actually meet an old Yaqui Indian and go walking through the desert, or did he just make that up. All your pontificating about the need to experience from within the paradigm and opening doors to other realms of experience is so much smoke and mirrors to the issue.
buffs99 said:
I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here. If the origins are, in fact, myth, then yes it does negate the occurrence. It did not occur, it was just a story.
Teritine, what do you mean by “…Carlos simply lived as he was taught…he erased Personal History and convinced everyone in the Media he was a fraud! and that was ideally to his advantage!”? Are you saying it was intentional that he look like a dishonest lunatic with delusions of grandeur?
The most pressing questions to me regard issues of our true nature, raised in the later books. Is self-importance a masquerade for self-pity? Is generosity a masquerade for selfishness? If your answer is yes, then what are we really, and are we going to die that way? Our whole lives wound up a big phony, a giant fraud.
So who is the fraud here?
The guy who at least made an attempt to unmask his true nature, or the guy who denied he has a mask?
This is what those books by Castaneda are all about.
Hey, now, that’s John Carter of Mars, not Carpenter.
(My apologies to the poster John Carter of Mars, who I’m sure would have liked to be the first to note this.)
Incidentally, there’s a rather big difference beteween having the obviously fictional protagonist of your obviously fictional book claim that his experiences were true, as a literary device, and claiming that events you relate happened to you personally, when they did not. The former is merely an overused literary cliche, spoiled even for the densest reader by the author’s name appearing on the spine; the latter is deception, and when used for the dishonest benefit of the author, it is fraud.
nobeta, you seem to miss the point. The question was not whether there were deeper truths or insights to the true nature of humanity in the books. The question was were the events described accurate descriptions of real events (i.e. meeting a Yaqui sorcerer, journeying through the desert, etc), or where they made up.
I am Sparticus, please provide a cite that Edgar Rice Burroughs actually claimed his books were about real people and real events.
I’m not gonna type in the introduction of A Princess of Mars, but it claims to be an autobiographical account of ERB’s relationship with John Carter. The very first line reads:
He then goes on for about 4 pages to describe how Captain Carter was an old buddy of the Burrough’s family, Carter’s history (including his time in the Civil War) and how ERB got to know Captain Carter.
If I recall correctly at least one (and maybe more) of the later books have similar openings, explaining how ERB got his hands on Carter’s latest adventures.
Likewise, L. Frank Baum claimed to be in radio communication with the Wizard of Oz and that’s how he was getting his hands on Dorothy’s later adventures.
The difference between Baum and Burroughs and Castenata is that Baum and Burroughs were using a popular literary gimmick of the time and not trying to fool anyone. Castenata is frankly not all that much different that L. Ron Hubbard, except that Hubbard’s Xenu fantasies are somewhat better thought out and Hubbard was a more successful fraud.