It may be true what Cecil says about Carlos making it all up. The topic certainly stirs up a lot of controversy. Why isn’t there similar bashing of the authors of the Bible? After all:
(Sorry 'bout that)
After all:
- It was written 2,000 yrs when only a small percentage of the populate could read and write.
- By today’s standards, written by truly poorly educated and superstitious people that had a poor understanding of the world and universe that surrounded them.
- In an epoch filled with people hearing voices, seeing strange things, and gods (including “the” god) so cruel they make Saddam look nice.
- And spawned a religion (The Roman Catholic Church) that was (and to some extent still is) hypocritical, blood thirsty, and power driven.
- And evidence for the authenticity and accuracy is dubious at best.
Doesn’t it all boil down to “faith”. Much like believing in the premise of being a Man of Knowledge, that the world is not as we have been taught to believe, we have an energy body, etc.
Welcome to the SDMB, and thank you for posting your comment.
Please include a link to Cecil’s column if it’s on the straight dope web site.
To include a link, it can be as simple as including the web page location in your post (make sure there is a space before and after the text of the URL).
Cecil’s column can be found on-line at this link:
Did Carlos Castaneda hallucinate that stuff in the Don Juan books or make it up? (21-Jun-2002)
moderator, «Comments on Cecil’s Columns»
Artemius, there is historical confirmation for some parts of the Bible.
See this article (at a secular website) for some examples:
- confirmation of the existence of King Mesha of the Moabites
- record of the payment of tribute to the Assyrian king Shalmaneser III by Jehu, king of the Israelites
- Babylonian documments confirming the existence of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, and his conquest of Jerusalem
etc.
How much of Carlos Castaneda’s story has been verified by an independent third party?
Arnold,
<<Artemius, there is historical confirmation for some parts of the Bible.
See this article (at a secular website) for some examples:
- confirmation of the existence of King Mesha of the Moabites
- record of the payment of tribute to the Assyrian king Shalmaneser III by Jehu, king of the Israelites
- Babylonian documments confirming the existence of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, and his conquest of Jerusalem>>
This is where Biblical believers dupe themselves because they “want” to believe. What you are referring to are examples of possible existences of people, places, and within the realm of reason, certain events. Not, and I repeat, Not, confirmation or proof of say, God parting the waters to allow his people to flee Egypt, Moses speaking to a burning bush that is the voice of God, the Walls of Jericho miraculously falling down, and on and on and on.
Did Moses and his people flee Egypt. Possibly. Via God’s intervention by parting the seas? Hmmmm…
Was there a battle of Jericho as referred to in this instance? That’s never been proven (some archaeologists claim to have disproven it) but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Did Joshua and his people toot their horns and the walls came tumbling down? Hmmmmm…
You see my point? There were just so few reliable and accurate Historian’s back then that attempting to piece together what actually occurred, in most instances, is impossible if not at least difficult. An the one’s that did put pen to paper, you can be entirely sure of their motives and prejudices. Just how accurate are they? So then you try to find independent corroborating evidence, usually archaeological. But, again, this doesn’t validate the “miracles”.
I really find it entertaining when I hear discussions on ancient or Biblical history. One always hears the preface, “Most bibilical scholars believe…” As in, not ALL. The more one reads books on ancient history the more you realize just how damned confusing it can be.
Then, of course, there’s Jesus. Walking on water, turning water into wine, creating a feast out of a few fishes and loafs of bread, raising Lazarus from the dead, defying all known laws of the universe by dying, his body rotting for 3 days, then being miraculously brought back to life.
I believe Jesus existed because there’s evidence that he did. All the other supernatural powers and events attributed to him cannot, and will not, ever be proved. It’s all faith.
<<How much of Carlos Castaneda’s story has been verified by an independent third party>>
I will grant that you have some ammunition here. However, research will show that he had to have had an Indian informant/confidante to supply him with the information on Datura. Its use was known within the anthropological circles as a tightly guarded secret. This was confirmed by one of his professors. His first iwife is adamant on his disappearing for long periods of time and having copius field notes. Who knows.
People worship the Bible because it gives them something and provides meaning to their lives. Likewise, so long as someone doesn’t get too wrapped up in some of CC’s claims, there’s something to be said about his warrior code that if we all followed to some degree would do us some good. Such as, not complaining or whining, paying thanks to all those that have helped us in the past, giving thanks for being alive, etc. Things such as that.
I really don’t have the answers. It’s just interesting to me how much CC bashing there is while at the same time people have Bible’s on their shelves.
Recommended reading:
- Holy Blood, Holy Grail
- The Rule of Secrecy
- The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception
- Uriel’s Machine
- Fingerprint’s of the Gods
- The Phoenix Solution
Artemius - I am only vouching for some of historical portions of the Bible, not the supernatural events - which are obviously a question of faith.
You say:
Wasn’t Mr. Castaneda an anthropology student?
You forgot *Worlds in Collision,*The Lost Continent of Mu, and Chariots of the Gods.
Arnold,
Yes Mr. Casteneda was an anthropology student. I brought up that point about an informant and Datura and field notes to point out that it isn’t entirely out of the realm of reason that at least part of his story is true. Without at least that, then the rest of his claims rest on quite an even more slippery slope.
John W. Kennedy:
Good suggestions. Let’s also add:
- When the Gods Came Down
- The Messianic Legacy
- The Hiram Key
- Gods of Eden
This was previously discussed in this forum http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=121644"] here The denouement of which discussion was that at some point Castaneda veered from straight research to well-researched-fiction-with-a-point. And that his “sin”, so to speak, was to take a fictional extrapolation of his research, which would have been perfectly legitimate, and seek to pass it as ALL factual scholarly research.
As I mentioned in that thread, these could be arguments about the Bible, or the Book of Mormon, or the Qur’an – that they are mostly “historical fiction”, stories based either closely or loosely upon real events, but whose importance is based on the impact of philosophical/moral discourses they contain.
I quote myself:
JRDelirious (and anyone else)
Thanks for the link.
I am decidedly “pro” Mr. Stronghorse’s position stated below. As CC used to say, “you can’t use science to validate or disprove sorcery.” It’s outside the paradigm. Having said that, I have a link somewhere that appears to scientifically validate the energy body. I will search for it and get back at 'ya. Also, science is definitely looking into parallel universes. Lot’s of mainstream physicists are doing so. So, when you consider that, just how crazy, pathological, and a liar was he?
Then someone else in the thread countered Stronghorse’s statement with their opinion that Cecil wasn’t necessarily saying the paradigm wasn’t real; rather, that CC’s experiences were made up. That none of it really happened.
I have to challenge that notion based on the fact (IMO) that it would be impossible (IMO) to make up the experiences cited in the bulk of the works to support such a foreign belief system. CC was talented, but IMO not that talented and imaginative.
I would also like to clarify a falsity commonly used to discredit CC. That is, that his teachings were contrary to Yaqui beliefs. “The Teachings of don Juan; A Yaqui Way of Knowledge” is misleading. The teachings have nothing to do with Yaqui belief systems. Don Juan just happened to be a Yaqui Indian. The Nagual of Don Juan’s party was Mexican. If anything, it was Toltec in origin but had evolved over the thousands of years into something almost completely different as more and more was learned about the world/universe.
If one has read all the works, all the complicated rituals dJ put CC thru in the early stages were designed to capture his attention, break routines, etc. (to shift his perception; or, assemblage point, if you will) dJ even supposedly tells CC later this AND that hallucinogens were not even necessary and that most of the other apprentices were not given any.
Stronghorse wrote:
The column on CARLOS CASTANEDA by cecil adams is exactly 180 degrees from the truth. I am a practicing shaman who has over twenty years experience with the teachings detailed by Carlos Castaneda. I have experienced much of the phenomenon described in his many books…and then some. All of these experiences have been without any drugs of any kind.
The problem with Mr. Adams’s column rests in the research that he quotes in his attempt to establish some measure of expertise and creditability for his hypothesis. The judgements rendered in this column, and from the other “experts” detailed therein, share a common
basis…the judgements are made from outside the paradigm being studied, rather than inside. Approaching any form of shamanism, sorcery, or any other similar form of indigenous practice which deals with the spirit world from outside the experience would be like attempting to understand the Rubic’s Cube by working with Tinker Toys. The truths discovered by experiencing multi-dimensional worlds, as described in the Castaneda books, cannot be rationally explained through some Western scientific, intellectual belief system generated from outside the arena.
We are multi-dimensional beings, living in a multi-dimensional world, created by a multi-dimensional Creator. The full scope of the human potential, together with the cognitive abilities inherent in the human spirit, that is unleashed when these three aspects of “non-reality” interlock, is far from mainstream logic and/or rational thought of the Western mind. However, as history has always repeated, when someone steps onto the stage of human evolution and points to a different direction, the mainstream status quo tends to react in violent opposition with rational opinions carefully crafted to keep their secure belief systems firmly intact. The ego immediately sets up a defense.
Carlos Castaneda had a destiny to open the door so that others could follow. He wrote his observations as they occurred, leaving the readers to form their own opinions as to the merit or non-merit of the work. The doors that he has opened, by venturing into these “other worlds”, has caused memory to awaken in many who now explore these multi-dimensional worlds for a better understanding as to who we humans are, what this living planet is about, and how all of this fits within the scheme of the Creator. The pathology of today’s social structure surely cannot be accepted by even the most jaded intellectual as being in alignment with the highest intent of the Creator for this planet and His children. Perhaps the true “con job” and “hoax” for us lies within this pathology that the mainstream struggles to defend. Perhaps the “spin” of the “experts” has been based upon the authoritative quotations of the “spin” of the other “experts” and this layering upon layering has come to the point where this diluted symbolism is all we have left to represent the truth. Perhaps it takes the daring of a few “lost souls” to venture outside of the matrix of today’s social pathology into the other worlds of non-reality in order to bring back the true essence of divine truth to the human consciousness.
Keeping the dream alive requires more than contrived commitment and superficial philosophies. It demands sacrifice, discipline, forbearance, willful intent, and a supreme love of the Creator and all that He desires for his “lost souls”. Most of the “baby boomers” who found themselves enchanted with the Castaneda books, yet not fully able to understand the context of its substance and how it fit into today’s world, have moved away from this dream and into the mainstream. The surrender to the institutionalized, corporate homogeneity of carefully structured collective de-sensitivity to the truth of our true spirit selves has engulfed our weak wills. However, for a few of us “nut jobs”, the fight to command Light into the dark spaces of our consciousness and revive the promise of the Creator’s dream for his children remains a high priority within our lives. (Although, I’ll grant you, it’s not exactly a smart career choice).
Deniability and loss of personal responsibility is a disease that has pervaded our culture and forced us to surrender our truths to those who put their personal gains above the collective welfare. However, no amount of deniability or refusal to accept personal responsibility for our souls evolution can override the truth of our interlocking multi-dimensional selves with Creation. The truth of this natural condition will eventually reach a state of presence so intense that it will be impossible to deny its existence…most likely around 2012. The changes that will occur from this “light storm” will forever transform our lives and our consciousness, especially in our relationship with our Creator. The beginning of this process and the opportunity for human beings to prepare for this process may well be traced back to an adventurous anthropology student who walked into another world and received teachings that were meant to awaken the human to its condition.
Austin, Texas: FrankStrongHorse@Yahoo.com
ARtemius Since the complete text of FrankStrongHorse was posted in the other link, you simply could have quoted segments or just said that you agree with his position, rather than quoting it again in it’s entirety.
You also said
As Art Bell used to say “UFO’s are real. Prove that they’re not.”
Sorcery can be “inside” or “outside” the paradigm, it can be in your heart, it can be in your mind, but You can’t prove that sorcery exists.
If you can, then you got a MILLION BUCKS coming. Go for it.
Dear SAMCLEN (or anyone else)
Just following the moderator’s suggestion. Instead of posting the link, I thought I was doing the polite copy & paste method of the entire post to save people the trouble of going directly to the link. No biggy. Sorry you were irritated.
[Moderator’s welcoming post to Artemius]
[Arnold informed me after my original post:]
<<Welcome to the SDMB, and thank you for posting your comment.
Please include a link to Cecil’s column if it’s on the straight dope web site.
To include a link, it can be as simple as including the web page location in your post (make sure there is a space before and after the text of the URL).
[I *assumed* copying and pasting the entire post would be appreciated]
<<Cecil’s column can be found on-line at this link:
Did Carlos Castaneda hallucinate that stuff in the Don Juan books or make it up? (21-Jun-2002)>>
<<moderator, «Comments on Cecil’s Columns»
>>
Now, moving on.
Samclem wrote:
<<As Art Bell used to say “UFO’s are real. Prove that they’re not.”>>
Conversely, Artemius says: “UFO’s are not real. Prove that they are.” Your point here is…?
But, I acknowledge your rationale. However, millions of sane, credible people have had sitings of UFO’s that cannot be explained by current scientific belief systems. Even thoroughly researched sitings by the military and others cannot explain them by current standards. Yet, people believe in the Bible, Koran, and Talmud. Yet, people totally discredit CC/dJ. Based on what? The former are in positions of power and influence in the world. There is such a discrepency and illogicity, it seems, to what we believe is true and valid vs. what is crap.
<<Sorcery can be “inside” or “outside” the paradigm, it can be in your heart, it can be in your mind, but You can’t prove that sorcery exists.>>
<<If you can, then you got a MILLION BUCKS coming. Go for it.>>
Thanks for the opening. My question to you is, are you a:
- Christian
- Of the Jewish faith
- Muslim
- Buddhist
- Taoist
- Hindu
- Other
- Atheist
- Agnostic
If you can prove any of the above of the above, present your evidence for the rest of us to review. A million bucks awaits you.
My point here is that don Juanism is trashed because people feel that CC made it all up and was a pathological liar, etc. I say, “Really?” Your factual evidence is? Unless you were there (when he was supposedly around dJ, etc) or were a member of his inner circle, who are you to say? His inner circle certainly isn’t trashing him.
How convenient is it that the belief systems listed above were created thousands of years ago (excluding agnosticism and atheism) and with no way of validating them?
Report
One of my points was that, in my opinion, you CAN use science to disprove sorcery. That was the reason for my link to James Randi. But perhaps I don’t understand what you or cc mean by sorcery. I may just be using a popular notion.
The problem with Castaneda’s account is that, while the mysticism resembles mysticism elsewhere in the world, the specific use of hallucinogens and the rituals don’t seem to correspond to anyone else’s (not just the Yaqui) . (And why did Castaneda title his work “A Yaqui Way of Knowledge” if it wasn’t?)
As was mentioned, I think, in the last thread, you should read de Mille’s two books on Castaneda. Castaneda’s Journey points out the inconsistencies between the books Castaneda wrote. The second, The Don Juan Papers, was edited by de Mille and contains works by other writers. It points out how inconsistent Castaneda’s description is with the real Sonoran environment, how the field notes he supplied don’t agree with his books (even when the dates are supposed to be the same), how his description of hallucinogenic mushrooms doesn’t jibe with reality, and places where he may have lifted some of his ideas. de Mille is clearly of the opinion that Castaneda is a hoaxer, and took advantage of his anthropology professor’s tilt toward a research method called Ethonomethodology by presenting him with what looked like a picture=perfect case of it.
Artemius - posting a link is fine and probably better than copy and paste.
CalMeacham (and anyone else)
<<The problem with Castaneda’s account is that, while the mysticism resembles mysticism elsewhere in the world, the specific use of hallucinogens and the rituals don’t seem to correspond to anyone else’s (not just the Yaqui)>>
I don’t know if the not resembling anyone else’s specific use of halucinogens and the rituals is relevant. Especially if guided by an experienced guide. Also, I don’t agree that don Juan’s construct of the world and reality resembles anyone else’s. I think that is/was part of the attraction…it was so different and had a certain logic to it.
<< (And why did Castaneda title his work “A Yaqui Way of Knowledge” if it wasn’t?)>>
Again, if one has read all the works (3 times for me. I’m a slow learner), the first book was purportedly compiled shortly into his apprenticeship when CC was just beginning the relationship and thought dJ was a Yaqui brujo just teaching him Yaqui Shamanism. dJ supposedly used a myriad of teaching aids to capture CC’s attention. But in the later works, dJ delves into the Toltec basis of the paradigm and how it evolved and goes so far as to point out that no two lineages were the same. That there were many “Man of Knowledge” paths.
For example. dJ pointed out that once invested with the knowledge and skills, one could choose to be morbid and a recluse. Spend the majority of one’s time in dreaming or other worlds or practising more or less black magic. dJ and his party chose to embrace and enjoy life and the everyday world and ultimately “burn with the fire from within.”
<<As was mentioned, I think, in the last thread, you should read de Mille’s two books on Castaneda. Castaneda’s Journey points out the inconsistencies between the books Castaneda wrote. >>
I’ve read some excerpts. Oh, I’ve no doubt there are inconsistencies. How about we start a thread on all the Biblical inconsistencies for you Christians? Did de Mille bother to point out the consistencies?
<<The second, The Don Juan Papers, was edited by de Mille and contains works by other writers. It points out how inconsistent Castaneda’s description is with the real Sonoran environment, how the field notes he supplied don’t agree with his books (even when the dates are supposed to be the same),>>
This could be due to protecting sources.
<< how his description of hallucinogenic mushrooms doesn’t jibe with reality,>>
And whose reality are we referring to? What paradigm?
<<and places where he may have lifted some of his ideas. de Mille is clearly of the opinion>>
Key word here is opinion. Would you agree that not everyone would agree with de Mille’s opinion?
<<that Castaneda is a hoaxer, and took advantage of his anthropology professor’s tilt toward a research method called Ethonomethodology by presenting him with what looked like a picture=perfect case of it.>>
Never-the-less, it wasn’t ONE professor who granted him his PhD, it was THREE. And it wasn’t the University of Sun 'n Fun, Bahamas; it was UCLA.
Artemius, you keep comparing Carlos Castaneda to other religions, especially christianity, and saying the one gets criticized while the others don’t. I invite you to look around this site more closely, especially the Great Debates forum. There I think you will find plenty of people willing to apply the same scrutiny to Catholicism, Mormonism, various and sundry Protestant versions, Judaism, the whole lot. Your rebuttal above is to mention that the bible has inconsistencies, too. Yes, most of us here are aware of that. And if you look in GD, you can probably find a dozen threads on just that issue. (I don’t know for certain, as I don’t particularly hang out in GD.) You’re certainly allowed to go start your own, if you think there’s anything to say.
You said:
Nonsense. If sorcery has a noticable effect in the physical world, you can test for that effect. Just like it is not possible to test for the existence of god, but it is possible to analyze particular claims about miracles and explain them.
Whenever someone declares something a fact, and especially when they emphasize that it is a “fact”, when it is opinions and propositions and conclusions, I know something is hinky with their position. There’s a lot of IMOs in that “fact”. I will agree it’s a fact that you hold that opinion. However, nothing else about the sentence is a fact.
And I note a glaring inconsistency in your position. On the one hand you state that the bible is made up, and on the other you say it is “impossible” to make up experiences to support such a foreign belief system. And Tolkien and Frank Herbert (and L. Ron Hubbard, but that’s another story) prove that it is not impossible to make up detailed experiences about foreign belief systems. All you have to hang your hat on is your opinion that CC wasn’t imaginative enough to make it all up.
In response to CalMeacham:
If the rituals and use of hallucinogens was characterized as a part of the tribal belief system as passed down by the culture Castaneda was claiming to have studied, then it is important to note that the descriptions he gives are at odds with other knowledge of those rituals and beliefs. If I claim Cherokee use peyote in their ceremonies when they don’t, then that shows I don’t know what I’m talking about. Also, one thing we’re debating is the existence of that guide, and using the rituals as proof the information was accurate. If the rituals don’t match up, then that casts doubt on whether he obtained them from another source.
Also, now you’re saying that the don Juan way was not really Yaqui, but some offshoot of Toltec beliefs. But wasn’t Castaneda’s PhD about Yaqui Indians and their rituals, beliefs, etc? So now you’re saying wasn’t based on what he said it was.
And now I have to laugh. I didn’t recognize the titles you listed, but since you took John W. Kennedy’s suggestions seriously, I can now evaluate them.
If Castaneda couldn’t find out that Don Juan Matus’ philosophy and methods didn’t resemble Yaqui ways in the slightest (and it was easily obtainable information – there’s a lot of work on the Yaqui, and this is supposed to be his field, fer cryin’ out loud! There are even popular books on the Yaqui.), or, finding out, didn’t even make a token comment on it, then he’d get no Ph.D. in anthropology from me,
I said:
I am decidedly “pro” Mr. Stronghorse’s position stated below. As CC used to say, “you can’t use science to validate or disprove sorcery.” It’s outside the paradigm.
You said:
<<Nonsense. If sorcery has a noticable effect in the physical world, you can test for that effect. Just like it is not possible to test for the existence of god, but it is possible to analyze particular claims about miracles and explain them.>>
If you can explain them, then they wouldn’t be miracles now, would they? (Unless you want to consider being alive a miracle.)
Let’s see now, Jesus was seen walking on water. O.K. He put something in the water to increase the surface tension enough to support his weight so long as he kept moving. Yea, right! NOT!
So, if Jesus’s body rotted for 3 days and then became corporeal again, there is no science to explain that. Oh, I know. He drank a bunch of naturally occurring anti-freeze, then had the disciples smother him and deposit him in a nice, cool, tomb underground. Then, on the 3rd day, someone showed up with a defribillator. Wait…they didn’t have defibrillators back then. Hmmmm
You and I both know we have consciousness but can you prove it scientifically? (No you cannot). Where does it reside? Where did it come from? Where does it go? Can’t be quantified. EEG’s don’t monitor consciousness, merely brain activity. Does a brain dead person still have consciousness? Can you prove it either way? I think, therefore I am. Then who are you when you aren’t thinking?
Don Juan could purportedly shift something called an assemblage point in his luminous cocoon and assemble different worlds. Apply your scientific techniques to analyzing that, please, and give us all an explanation how to go about doing it.
I wrote:
Then someone else in the thread countered Stronghorse’s statement with their opinion that Cecil wasn’t necessarily saying the paradigm wasn’t real; rather, that CC’s experiences were made up. That none of it really happened.
I have to challenge that notion based on the fact (IMO) that it would be impossible (IMO) to make up the experiences cited in the bulk of the works to support such a foreign belief system. CC was talented, but IMO not that talented and imaginative.
You wrote:
<<Whenever someone declares something a fact, and especially when they emphasize that it is a “fact”, when it is opinions and propositions and conclusions, I know something is hinky with their position. There’s a lot of IMOs in that “fact”. I will agree it’s a fact that you hold that opinion. However, nothing else about the sentence is a fact.>>
<<And I note a glaring inconsistency in your position. On the one hand you state that the bible is made up, and on the other you say it is “impossible” to make up experiences to support such a foreign belief system. And Tolkien and Frank Herbert (and L. Ron Hubbard, but that’s another story) prove that it is not impossible to make up detailed experiences about foreign belief systems. All you have to hang your hat on is your opinion that CC wasn’t imaginative enough to make it all up.>>
I write:
You’re over analyzing here. Let me simplify. It is my opinion that he wasn’t talented enough to make it all up, especially certain portions. And, yes, while it is my opinion CC wasn’t imaginative enough, it’s also just your opinion to the contrary. Should we have an opinion duel at 12 paces? And to compare his works to L. Ron Hubbard’s preposterous trash is no comparison at all. Never got into Tolkien and Herbert so I’ve no comment there.
I never said the Bible was made up and perhaps you’d like to supply the quote where I did. The Bible is composed of works by many authors. It uses a skeleton of actual and probably not so historical events and weaves into it the miracles.
In response to CalMeacham:
quote:
He wrote:
<The problem with Castaneda’s account is that, while the mysticism resembles mysticism elsewhere in the world, the specific use of hallucinogens and the rituals don’t seem to correspond to anyone else’s (not just the Yaqui)>>
I wrote:
I don’t know if the not resembling anyone else’s specific use of halucinogens and the rituals is relevant. Especially if guided by an experienced guide.
You wrote:
<<If the rituals and use of hallucinogens was characterized as a part of the tribal belief system as passed down by the culture Castaneda was claiming to have studied, then it is important to note that the descriptions he gives are at odds with other knowledge of those rituals and beliefs. If I claim Cherokee use peyote in their ceremonies when they don’t, then that shows I don’t know what I’m talking about. Also, one thing we’re debating is the existence of that guide, and using the rituals as proof the information was accurate. If the rituals don’t match up, then that casts doubt on whether he obtained them from another source.>>
You may be right, who knows, neither of us was there. It didn’t seem to bother the 3 PhD professors monitoring his work. I distinctly remember reading an account of them reading a rough draft of “The Teachings”. From their own experiences, they decided to allow CC to publish it because they knew he had to have had a Yaqui informant to be so intimately familiar with the rituals in Datura use and preparation.
And people who haven’t really read the books keep tripping over the same mistake. That is, later works point out that dJ was using and saying whatever was necessary to get CC hooked. For instance, in the beginning he told him that hallucinogens were absolutely necessary to become a Man of Knowledge. Years later, he told him not so but that CC was so stubborn he had to use them.
Now, if there are inconsistencies in rituals vs. the paradigm in his 1st book or so, so what. The Bible has inconsistencies too. Think this makes a difference to Billy Graham?
You wrote:
<<Also, now you’re saying that the don Juan way was not really Yaqui, but some offshoot of Toltec beliefs. But wasn’t Castaneda’s PhD about Yaqui Indians and their rituals, beliefs, etc? So now you’re saying wasn’t based on what he said it was.>>
I write:
It’s apparant that you either haven’t read all the books or just skimmed over them. He obtained his Master’s for “The Teachings” and his PhD for “A Separate Reality”. You would also be aware of don Juan’s position that theirs was a 10,000 year old lineage dating back to the Toltecs. A Separate Reality was not necessarily centered on Yaquis. Read it and find out for yourself.
You wrote:
<<And now I have to laugh. I didn’t recognize the titles you listed, but since you took John W. Kennedy’s suggestions seriously, I can now evaluate them. >>
I write:
Oh, JWK’s intent did not go unnoticed. Holy Blood, Holy Grail and is successor, The Messianic Legacy are excellent and well researched. Read The Hiram Key as to whose image it probably is on the Turin shroud and the bloody means by which it got there. In fact, all those recommendations were well researched and are interesting.