My first time here, so I apologize, in advance for any rookie mistakes…
I’m looking for any recent, factual articles, websites or other resources that might further debunk the existence of Castaneda’s infamous don Juan Matus…and my motivation has become highly personal. Cecil’s article on this topic http://www.straightdope.com/columns/020621.html, which brought me here via a Google search, is a great foundation for this argument—I’m merely looking for anything more current and/or more comprehensive.
My motivation results from the fact that my wife has become ACTIVELY involved in the past 18 months with a group that is headed by another, self-proclaimed, native Mexican born shaman leader who claims to have been one of, if not the last, direct, student-disciples of Matus and that Matus, in fact, died in this man’s arms.
While I believe the focus of this man and this group’s efforts appear relatively positive and virtuous in nature (and are NOT drug or alcohol induced), some of what I have been able to draw out in post meeting inquiries is raising significant concern as to where this may all be ultimately headed. Any legitimate (informational) help, guidance or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
But that was the best part! Back in the day that was pretty much the ONLY part. I had a professor who met Don Juan once, sitting in a tree. Little did I know at the time that was enough for me to start a religion. :smack:
Sorry, Mike, I don’t have anymore but just didn’t want you to feel ignored. Someone will be along presently who can help you much more, but, as you already know I’m not very helpful, how long have you been married? Any kids? Are you sure you want to stay married to somebody that gullible?
Since guests can’t search, I’ve done it for you. Here are 3 previous discussions that might be of use.
If you haven’t checked Skeptical Inquirer magazine at Archive | Skeptical Inquirer, do so. I know Martin Gardner did an article on him and there may be others. If the articles aren’t online, you may be able to get them through your local library. The Gardner article has been reprinted in one of his collections.
I don’t know if James Randi at www.randi.org has written anything about this, but it’s worth checking. They also have a forum where you can ask for info.
If you want a good critical look at Castaneda’s books, get Richard de Mille’s Castaneda’s Journey. He points out the discrepancies in the books and the timelines that make it clear that the “factual” parts of the books are clearly hooey. Unfortunately, the book is long out of print. Try Alibris or some other used book source.
De Mille later edited (and partly wrote) The Don Juan Papers, which is also critical of Castaneda’s output, but which has a lot more tongue-in’;cheek material. Still worth getting, especially because it proves that other people – experts in their topics, like ethnologist/mushroom expert Gordon Wasson – didn’t buy Castaneda’s bill of goods either. My favorite piece in “The Lion, the Witch, and the Horned Toad”, a piece by someone familiar with the Sonoran desert, who says that, no matter what the metaphysics involved may have been, the physical description and the actions taken by don Juan Matus and his fledgling sorceror were inconsistent with reality, and would have resulted int their deaths by sunstroke, tularemia, or worse.
Taking a guess from your screen name mikelpsu if you’re associated with Penn State, both books that **Cal Meacham ** mentioned are available through the libraries. And if you’re not, well, tell your public library to get them for you through interlibrary loan.
Best of luck with this. Hope your wife comes around to your way of thinking.
Thanks for your links and literary references here—I’ll be sure to follow up on each of them (having already read the links provide by Rowrrbazzle upon first receiving them).
Thanks also to the tongue in cheek remarks from Dropzone—Even though this is an extremely serious subject involving my wife and 22 years or marriage, it is, admittedly, sad enough to be somewhat humorous and (fortunately) I think I have a thick enough skin to deal with it and the associated barbs accordingly!!!
When someone you love is so devoutely committed to something you are fairly skeptical about as even being true or legitimate, it really challenges the depth and sincerity of your relationship. If a relatively sane woman any of you had known for 31 years and had been married to for 22 (fairly) suddenly made the following of the writings of Castaneda (as interpreted through one of his alleged, personally trained disciples, an almost Christ-like figure in the pecking order in this group’s mind), a central point in her life and thought processes, how would each of you go about combatting that, knowing that “combatting” would likely, in fact, only widen the chasm!!! [Note: Sorry for the run-on sentence there!]
Some of the phenomena that has been shared with me as having been experienced or witnessed (by my wife) I can accept as possible, but certain other things are beyond my logical depth of reason and scientific possibility. I’d like to try to get beyond “HER experience” vs. “MY inherent skepticism” in as unemotional and objective a manner as possible. Unfortunately it all seems difficult to prove, disprove, validate or refute in any concrete way.
Just another one of many life challenges, I guess!?!?!?!?
Final thought for CapnPitt—as you speculated—yes, Penn State, class of '79 and a native of your largest city due north within the state!
Thanks again to all for their inputs!!! The challenge continues…
I’ve read much of the critical work on Castaneda and it’s only too easy to poke holes in his narratives. For true believers, such academic treatments will never be able to detract from the fantastic world detailed in the original novels.
The best possible resource I can think of along these lines is The Sorcerer’s Apprentice, by Amy Wallace. As an inside account from someone who actually joined up and had personal experience with Castaneda, it’s much more revealing than any debunking I’ve ever come across. This is a very smart, very accomplished woman who chronicles how she was convinced to forsake her family and friends and join Castaneda’s Tensegrity movement. She recounts first-hand experiences with not only “the Nagual” but many of the apprentices that appear in the books themselves. It’s the best book on Castaneda I’ve ever read; even if it were a novel, it would be compelling in its own right. I suggest you put it in your wife’s hands and tell her to read it.
Wow, mikelpsu, that is a tough position. As far as how to present it, I think that arguing facts and logic won’t make a whole lot of difference, because it’s pretty clearly not any facts or logic that brought her to this place.
Not that I’ve had a lot of experience with this, but it seems to me that finding out why she’s attracted to this movement is the key to building a stronger relationship.
It might be the equivalent of a male sportscar-buying mid-life crisis, or something else, but figuring out the emotional need that this is fulfilling is what is going to (hopefully) help channel that need into something that doesn’t strain the relationship.
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