Cecil a UFO debunker?

Well Shodan, the government cover-up issue is whole other kettle of fish. I did indeed say that one of the possible reasons for a cover-up would be “To not directly interfere with human society as to inflict mass panic or a complete collapse of our religious and economic institutions as a dramatic appearance would undoubtedly cause”. I shouldn’t have said undoubtedly. Possibly would have been a better word, but I do believe that a dramatic appearance by aliens would have a primarily negative effect on these institutions. It’s not hard to imagine how sensitive markets would react negatively to such an event considering how they react to more mundane news. I’m sure religious institutions would have problems as well, but certainly could survive depending on how their followers react to the news. “Complete collapse” might have been a little strong I admit, but it’s one of the scenarios that people have proposed.

As for Jimmy Carter I’m not sure. He did say he wanted to find out what the government knew about UFOs and if he ever became president he would make all the information available. He obviously didn’t do that. In 1977 an official release was made on the subject of disclosure:

“Whatever statement you saw concerning President Carter’s view
on UFOs was not exactly what he said. He had seen something that
he thought was unexplainable that possibly might have been a UFO
and he will certainly disclose and describe any unusual
phenomena he might see. He is committed to the fullest possible
openness in government and would support full disclosure of
material that was not defense sensitive that might relate to
UFOs. He did not, however, pledge to “make every piece of
information concerning the UFOs available to the public.” There
might be some aspects of some sightings that would have defense
implications that possibly should be safe guarded against
immediate and full disclosure.”
– Walter Wurfel, Carter Deputy Press Secretary, February 28, 1977

So alien visitors or top secret military projects? Who knows? It’s hard to deny that government secrecy and UFO’s don’t go hand in hand however.

Carter hasn’t been the only president making statements on the UFO secrecy issue either. It was during that July 2000 campaign encounter in Springdale, Ark. that Charles A. Huffer a UFO researcher asked George W Bush if he were elected President would he disclose "the truth about UFOs,”:

Huffer: “Half the public believes that they are real. Would you finally tell us what the hell is going on?"
Gov. Bush: “Sure. I will.”
Huffer: “This man knows. He was Secretary of Defense.”
Bush: “And was a great one.”
Several minutes later, Huffer again saw Gov. Bush in the hall. He recognized him immediately and unsolicited said approximately the following:
Gov. Bush: “It will be the first thing he (pointing to Cheney) will do. He’ll get right on it.”
Charles A. Huffer: “Will, will you really?”
Gov. Bush: “Yes Sir.”

Cheney was later questioned during his appearance on the Washington D.C. Public Radio Station WAMU on April 11, 2001. He spoke from the White House.

Researcher Grant Cameron: “Since the statement made by George Bush last July, there is a vicious rumor circulating in the UFO community that you’ve been read into the UFO program. So my question to you is, in any of your government jobs, have you ever been briefed on the subject of UFOs, and if you have, when was it and what were you told?”

Cheney: “Well, if I had been briefed on it, I’m sure it was probably classified and I couldn’t talk about it.”

Rehm (host): “Is there investigation going on within this administration, Mr. Vice President, as to UFOs?”

Cheney: “I have not come across the subject since I’ve been back
in government, oh like since January 20th.”

Rehm: All right.

This is interesting because of Cheney’s statement that the subject of UFOs would “probably be classified.” The U.S. government has been claiming since December 1969 when it shut down Project Blue Book that nothing is classified, and everything is on the table.

Here are more quotes from other government officials on the matter:

U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater, retired Air Force Reserve Brigadier General and pilot:

•“I think some highly secret government UFO investigations are going on that we don’t know about–and probably never will unless the airforce discloses them.”

•“I remember the case in Georgia in the 1950’s of a National Guard plane going after a UFO and never returning. And I recall the case in Franklin, Kentucky, when four military planes investigated a UFO. One of them exploded in midair and no one knows why.”

•“Hell no, you can’t go. I can’t go, and don’t ask me again.” --Senator Goldwater quoting General Curtis Lamey’s response to the senator’s request to visit the “Blue Room” at Wright Patterson Air Force Base where, Goldwater claims he was told physical evidence exists confirming the existence of alien spacecraft.

•“Yes.” --Senator Goldwater’s response to Larry King’s question: “Do you think our government knows UFOs are real and are keeping this fact from the American public?”

Nick Pope, headed up the “UFO desk” at Air Secretariat 2-A, British Ministry of Defense from 1991-1994, and has served in other departments of the Ministry of Defense since 1985:

•“I concentrate on the science. I’m interested in the UFOs seen by the police and military witnesses. I’m interested in the near misses that pilots report, where their aircraft nearly collide with these things. I’m interested in the visual sightings backed up by radar. I’m interested in the military bases that are overflown by these things. I’m interested in the cases where you have radiation readings on the ground. These are no lights in the sky. These are not misidentifications of fantasy prone individuals. This is a cutting-edge technology being reported by reliable, trained observers, and it is something that goes beyond what we can do. That to me suggests that if it is not ours, it belongs to someone else. If that technology is better than ours, then the extraterrestrial hypothesis seems to me the best explanation.”

•“Certainly when I socialized with my RAF colleagues, I would find that they were a little bit more receptive to the idea of UFOs–and by that I mean perhaps even an extraterrestrial explanation for this – than you might have supposed. One of the reasons for that was that so many RAF pilots had actually seen things themselves. Many of them have never made an official report. I had one chap tell me that he had seen something over the North Sea. I asked him why he hadn’t reported it, and he said, ‘I don’t want to be known as Flying Saucer Fred for the rest of my career.’”

•“We were asking the Americans, ‘Are you operating a prototype aircraft in our airspace?’ That, of course, was nonsense. You simply would not do that from a diplomatic and political point of view. It would undermine the entire structure of NATO if you were putting things through someone else’s airspace, particularly a close ally, without seeking the proper diplomatic clearance. But we had to ask. And the Americans, having had similar reports, I guess, since the Hudson Valley wave [New York state, mid-1980s], had been quietly asking us if we had some large, triangular shaped object that could go from 0 to Mach 5 in a second. Our response was that we wished we did. This was the bizarre situation: that we were chasing the Americans, and the Americans were chasing us.”

•“The official line from the Ministry of Defense is, ‘Yes, this happened. No, we don’t know what it is, but we say that it is of no defense significance.’ How can it possibly be of no defense significance when your best jet is left for standing by a UFO? And, again, how can it be of no defense significance when your air defense region is routinely penetrated by structured craft?”

Other notable quotes on UFOs from government officials:

•“The phenomenon of UFOs does exist, and it must be treated seriously.”
-Former Russian President Mikhail Gorbachev (Soviet Youth, May 4, 1990)

•“I know that neither Russia nor this country has anything even approaching such high speeds and maneuvers. Behind the scenes high ranking officers are soberly concerned about UFOs, but through official secrecy and ridicule many citizens are led to believe that the unknown flying objects are nonsense. . .To hide the facts, the Air Force has silenced its personnel.”
-Admiral Roscoe Hillencoter, former director of the CIA, at a 1962 NICAP press conference in Washington D.C.

•“I would do it [aid the Army Air Force in its investigations] but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to the discs recovered. For instance in the LA* case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination.” --From a handwritten notation at the bottom of a now declassified memo.

•"[UFOs are] considered top secret by intelligence officers of both the Army and the Air Forces." --From a declassified 1949 FBI document from the San Antonio FBI office, to J. Edgar Hoover.

•“An investigator for the Air Force stated that three so-called flying saucers had been recovered in New Mexico. They were described as being circular in shape with raised centers. Approximately 50 feet in diameter. Each one was occupied by three bodies of human shape but only 3 feet tall. Dressed in metallic cloth of a very fine texture. Each body was bandaged in a manner similar to the blackout suits used by speed flyers and test pilots.” --From a March 22, 1950 memo to J. Edgar Hoover from the Washington FBI Office, released in 1976 under the freedom of information act.

•“I feel that the Air Force has not been giving out all the available information on the Unidentified Flying Objects. You cannot disregard so many unimpeachable sources.”
-John W. McCormack, Former Speaker of the House, January 1965

•“It’s difficult for me to understand even if there was a legitimate security concern in 1947, that it would be a present security concern these many years later. Frankly I am baffled by the lack of responsiveness on the part of the Defense Dept. on this one issue, I simply can’t explain it.” (Excerpts of Congressman Schiff’s remarks on CBS radio’s The Gil Gross Show, February 1994.)

Personally, the more I look into the UFO cover-up issue the more intriguing it gets. One thing’s for sure though; the debate will continue on both sides of the issue for a long time to come as credible UFO sightings continue alongside apparent official government denial.

North.

"When four college professors, a geologist, a chemist, a physicist and a petroleum engineer report seeing the same UFOs on fourteen different occasions, the event can be classified as, at least, unusual. Add the fact that hundreds of other people saw these UFOs and that they were photographed, and the story gets even better. Add a few more facts - that these UFOs were picked up on radar and that a few people got a close look at one of them, and the story begins to convince even the most ardent skeptic." (Ruppelt, Edward J., The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, New York: Doubleday, 1956.) (Re: Lubbock lights case).

north writes:

> . . . General Curtis Lamey . . .

I presume you mean General Curtis LeMay.

north -

Thanks for your response. I am afraid I still don’t see why the knowledge that we are being/have been visited by aliens would cause a downturn in our society. I would expect just the opposite. Such knowledge would, at a stroke, double our knowledge of the universe, not least in that it proves that practical interstellar travel is possible.

If I were President, I would instantly make all available evidence public immediately, in hopes of being able to figure out some aspects of their technology. If we had some material that was stronger than anything we could make, let the best materials engineers, metallurgists, and polymer chemists have a crack at trying to analyze it. If we recovered little green bodies from a crash site, then let’s X-ray and photograph and sample them and see what they are made out of.

And the notion that they might be hostile in their intentions is highly unlikely, in my opinion. I would think ten minute’s thought would indicate that it is not economically viable to travel all those light years just to eat us or make us into slaves in the Prozac mines of Darvon IV or something. If they just want to study us, I would try to contact them to convince them they can learn more with our cooperation than by anally probing the denizens of our local trailer parks.

I think, if they really do want to study us, then we have a point in common - curiousity. And if we can trigger that in them, think of what we can learn from them while they study us.

So, even given the implausibility of a cover-up stretching back over fifty-seven years and eleven administrations, I don’t believe it would happen even if it were possible. There is simply no reason strong enough to account for a cover-up of visitors from another planet. We have too much to gain from revelation to make concealment an option.

And if it seems that way to me, why did it not seem the same to Carter, who claimed to have seen a UFO? I didn’t see much cover-up when they found those rocks they thought showed evidence of life on Mars.

Regards,
Shodan

If the government is covering up conclusive evidence that UFOs are piloted by ETs (and not secret projects like the Roswell balloons) what has been the impact? Has their been technological advances unexplainable except by learning from UFOs? I’d think that the US government, at least, would be accelerating space research. One of the biggest aids in doing research is to know that something is possible. If we knew FTL travel was possible, I think there would be a lot more money thrown at physics. I haven’t seen any evidence at all of this.

There is one guy who used to run a software company who claims aliens are behind advances in microelectronics. I have been involved in this area for a long time, and I can assure you there are no aliens involved (space aliens, that is. :slight_smile: )
So, what has the government done differently because of this knowledge?

The really interesting thing is that there is a government conspiracy, but it’s not a conspiracy to cover up UFO sightings. Quite the contrary, the government actively encourages the notion that UFOs are alien spacecraft. They do, after all, test various hardware of their own, and that hardware is, of course, secret when it’s first being tested. Despite this, it’s inevitable that when you do a big test, some folks are going to see something. You don’t want them to realize that they’re seeing secret weapon tests, so what do you do? You trick them into thinking that they’re seeing something else. The best part is that the conspiracy doesn’t even need to be very secure, since it’s directed towards conspiracy-minded folks, who will see any leaks as evidence of a cover-up.

Not to mention the economic opportunities. Imagine the bidding wars to be the first person to open a Starbucks franchise on Thargon IIX. And on the religious front, finding a whole new continent full of people who had never heard of Jesus didn’t cripple Christianity. I don’t see why finding a whole planet full of people who’d never heard of Jesus would be any different. To the contrary, it would probably be massively revitalizing, as religious institutions start sending out missionaries on a scale not seen since the colonization of Africa and the Americas.

And imagine what would happen if they have heard of Jesus! I’d have to start shopping for a church!

Evidently, it’s working as planned brother Chronos. :smiley:

That’s a very interesting point.

Although it is entirely possible that this whole mess got started at Roswell when some secret military surveillance balloons or whatever crashed, and now the bother of dealing with the conspiracy theories are more trouble than a more conventional cover-up would have been.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting perspective. Can I ask for a cite on the government encouraging the UFO theory without sounding confrontational?

Regards,
Shodan

North, I don’t want to cite your entire post #201 but if everything in it is true don’t you have exactly what you want, which is a government funded investigation into UFO’s?

Well, there are some fundamentalist sects who would be disturbed by the news of aliens, but since the present US administration is the first one actually under the control of fundamentalists, it can hardly explain an alleged conspiracy extending over fifty years.

Anyway, the fundies would just go into denial. After all, that’s what they do.

<Homer of Thargon IIX> Mmm, missionaries… :slight_smile: </Homer>

I googled a little and just read a debunking of this sighting. Unfortunately, it’s in french and quite long, so I don’t think a link would be of any interest to the dopers.

But the author not only criticize the scientist who stated that an “aging” of plants caused by “micro waves” , but plainly ridicule him, stating basically that he was out of his field of competence, didn’t follow any serious methodology, ignored contradictory evidences, and didn’t even investigate any alternate mundane causes. He add that said scientist admitted later that there might have been other causes, and also that he was fooled into making the same findings in a case that turned out to be a prank.

The author attributes the enthousiasm of the GEPAN (a french official organism formerly in charge of investigating UFO cases) to study this particular sighting to the fact that it was about to be disbanded, and the enthousiasm of the scientist, as noted above, to his utter incompetence.

He propose the following amazing explanations for this case as being the most likely :

-The only witness wanted to play a practical joke for the “benefit” of his neighbors, who were firmly into “Ufology”, and it went totally out of hand when, despite his own reluctance, said neighbors called the police, the medias, etc…

-The mysterious damages caused to plants were the result of a lack of sunlight caused by a car parked on this spot for some time before the supposed sighting and of the subsequent trampling by a multitude of people. You can’t find a more mundane explanation.
He also quote said only witness as saying later on TV :

“The little thing I would like to add is that…Let’s say, I saw, I saw, it’s a tale, let’s say! The evidence you can find on the ground, there…people, scientists, who gathered something there, that’s another story. I mean, I too dream at night”

(“Le petit mot que je voulais dire moi pour terminer, c’est dans… Disons, j’ai vu, j’ai vu, c’est un conte disons! La preuve qu’on peut trouver par terre là,…des gens, des scientifiques là, relever quelquechose, ça c’est une autre chose. Je dis moi aussi dans la nuit je rêve.” )
And later : “There are so many morons on this world. Some day, I’ll tell you the whole truth”

(“Il y a tellement de couillons dans le monde. Un jour, je vous dirai toute la vérité”. )

Here the link, though, in case someone would read french and be interested :

http://www.zetetique.ldh.org/tep.html
It has been also translated in english and published in UFO 1947-1997, Hilary Evans and Dennis Stacy, Ed. Fortean Times, so maybe the translation is online somewhere. It’s actually a brief overview of a more complete study not available online, apparently.
Just noticed the author mentions the speciality of the scientist who studied the aging of plants : bees’ glycaemia , and not, as he puts it, “analysis of plant traumas seemingly related to mysterious objects coming from somewhere”.

Fixed link

Clairobscur,

merci beaucoup!

North,

You’ve been jolly co-operative and made claims / posted links, which is what we like here.
Unfortunately they keep being refuted (or even undermining your position. :eek: )

You’ve asked for extended research - it has been done.
You gave a promising sighting - there’s a mundane explanation.
You wanted pattern research - it shows that eye-witnesses are affected by planets, blimps and even films.
You quoted a UFO organisation as reference - they say there’s been nothing worth investigating for the last couple of years.
The astronomer + his leading example you gave turns out to have been a hoax. (He also says there is no evidence that Roswell was aliens.)

Now this does not reflect on you (and it shows we are prepared to consider the possibilities).
But it does undermine the case that there is any evidence to investigate.
Can you give us the best single case that suggests UFO’s are aliens?

My problem with conspiracy theories is not that none of them are plausible. Rather, I think that far too many of them are superficially plausible. What I want to say to the believers in any conspiracy theory is “Take a look at somebody else’s conspiracy theory.” Look, for instance, at those in The 80 Greatest Conspiracies of All Time by Jonathan Vankin and John Whalen. All of them are superficially plausible and can’t be refuted except with a huge amount of research (and maybe can’t be refuted even then). They are often mutually contradictory though. And are we supposed to believe that governments have nothing to do with their time and money except put together huge (and I do mean huge) cover-ups for all these conspiracies?

I suspect that a few of the conspiracies might really even exist. In a book like Vankin and Whalen’s, for instance, I suspect that maybe one of the 80 is completely true and maybe another five are partially true. The problem is that I have absolutely no idea which ones are even partly true. How much time do you expect us to spend checking out theories like UFO cover-ups when all the cases we’ve looked at don’t seem to pan out? Why is your conspiracy theory so much more important than other people’s ones? (And there are many, many other ones.)

I expect that you’re going to say, “But how can you not spend all your time checking out the UFO cover-up conspiracy? Don’t you realize how important it is?” Really? Just how important is it that we definitively know whether UFO’s are currently visiting us? In your theory, the aliens are incredibly technologically advanced in order to be able to come to Earth and never quite be officially sighted. (Yes, in your theory they are fleetingly sighted all the time, but never by a large enough crowd close enough to be verified.) And in your theory, the government is so powerful that they can cover up all the brief sightings. If the aliens and the government are so powerful, what possible chance do we have of penetrating the cover-up? (Incidentally, given that both the aliens and the government are so incredibly powerful in your theory, why aren’t they fighting each other?) When the aliens land on the U.N. building and walk into the General Assembly we’ll know that they’re here. Until then, we’ve got better things to do with our time than check out every conspiracy theory.

Yes, I’m sure they are actually doing that too. I’m sure lots of UFO sightings have been aviation hardware that they were (and are) testing. It’s hard for me to believe all (credible) sightings are actually our technology though, and if they are, well, that’s just as interesting (almost).

In regards to this theory anybody care to take on Nick Pope?

Biography:

I work at the Ministry of Defence, which I joined in 1985. I’ve had many different postings and have undertaken a fascinating series of jobs within the Department, including work in the Joint Operations Centre during the Gulf War, where I was a briefer in the Air Force Operations Room. I’ve also been involved in work on the crises in Iraq and Afghanistan. I’m a Senior Executive Officer, which is a civilian grade equivalent to the military rank of Lieutenant Colonel.

Between 1991 and 1994, I was posted to a division called Secretariat (Air Staff) and was given the job of researching and investigating the UFO phenomenon, mirroring the work done in the US by the now defunct Project Blue Book. Although most of the cases could be explained as misidentifications of known objects and phenomena, a hard core of sightings defied any conventional explanation. Strong evidence emerged suggesting the presence of structured craft capable of speeds and maneuvers beyond the capability of even the most advanced prototype craft operated by the Royal Air Force or the United States Air Force.

My unique access to new data and old government files convinced me that the UFO phenomenon raised serious defence and national security issues. I came across numerous instances where UFOs had been tracked on radar, leading to jets being scrambled. There were also cases where there had been terrifying near-misses between UFOs and civilian aircraft. All this led me to believe that an extraterrestrial explanation for some sightings could not be ruled out.

We were asking the Americans ‘Are you operating a prototype aircraft in our airspace?’ That, of course, was nonsense. You simply would not do that from a diplomatic and political point of view. It would undermine the entire structure of NATO if you were putting things through someone else’s airspace, particularly a close ally, without seeking the proper diplomatic clearance. But we had to ask. And the Americans, having had similar reports, I guess, since the Hudson Valley wave [New York state, mid-1980s], had been quietly asking us if we had some large, triangular shaped object that could go from 0 to Mach 5 in a second. Our response was that we wished we did. This was the bizarre situation: that we were chasing the Americans, and the Americans were chasing us."

“I concentrate on the science. I’m interested in the UFOs seen by the police and military witnesses. I’m interested in the near misses that pilots report, where their aircraft nearly collide with these things. I’m interested in the visual sightings backed up by radar. I’m interested in the military bases that are over flown by these things. I’m interested in the cases where you have radiation readings on the ground. These are no lights in the sky. These are not misidentifications of fantasy prone individuals. This is a cutting-edge technology being reported by reliable, trained observers, and it is something that goes beyond what we can do. That to me suggests that if it is not ours, it belongs to someone else. If that technology is better than ours, then the extraterrestrial hypothesis seems to me the best explanation.”
Yeah, I mean Cronos’s theory may explain a high number of UFOs in American airspace, but credible UFO sightings (by trained observers) have been reported all over the world. It seems to me it would be easier to keep the whole alien thing a secret at home than to export the testing of your “advanced technology” to a multitude of foreign airspaces and keep that a secret.

North.

[QUOTE=glee]
North,

You’ve been jolly co-operative and made claims / posted links, which is what we like here. Unfortunately they keep being refuted (or even undermining your position. :eek: )
Ok Glee, lets have a look…is it true that "Unfortunately they keep being refuted or that I keep “undermining my position”? I don’t think so. I refute that they’ve even been satisfactorially refuted. Let’s go through them all.

  • “Is not” and “was a” are important to note, significant difference here.
  • Of course this is a possible explanation, but I’d need more questions answered before I fully accept that hypothesis. Such as: Oil rigs are stationary right? So why wouldn’t this be a common and known occurence for these pilots? The oil rigs are still there, so is the same phenomena repeating itself? If not, why not? These are important questions that need to be answered.
  • These patterns might address a percentage of sightings but they do not represent or address the whole. This is not all there is to be learned from the UFO phenomena. well, maybe only if you believe that all sightings are Venus, blimps, media induced and teenage hoaxes.
  • Is this an example of me undermining my position? (If not, where exactly have I done that?) It’s his words that have impact, not the fact that the research has been discontinued (apparently there were internal problems so there could be many reasons for it’s closing and not a lack of things to study). I just happened to have quoted him, but I could have quoted many others who have said the same thing.
  • I believe I addressed that issue in post #198.
  • Look, the last thing I’d want as director of a serious study of the UFO phenomenon would be for my people to send samples of evidence to a person “out of his field of competence” to study, who “didn’t follow any serious methodology”, “ignored contradictory evidences”, or “didn’t even investigate any alternate mundane causes”. That’s the last thing any serious UFO researcher would want (I’d also ensure samples are sent to more than one lab for study with no mention of UFOs to anyone). These kinds of things only lead to questions about your credibility and what serious organization would want that? I’d say, if this is information is true (and that needs to be looked into), that if GEPAN conducted their research in this manner, they should be spanked. This kind of research does a disservice to serious researchers in all fields, least of all the UFO field. One of my first questions is: What’s the response by GEPAN to this “debunking”?

North.

Hmmm, Looks like a few scientists are taking the possibilities seriously again…

See the PDF document JBIS at the bottom of this page…

New scientific report