Cecil a UFO debunker?

[north]

@Priceguy

Can we see it?

Refer back to my goatpeople comment. You can’t go around looking for evidence of anything you might think of. You’d never get anything done. When evidence turns up, you examine it. Until then, it’s a waste of time to go “looking”, which you apparently agree with as you are not looking for evidence of a race of goatpeople living underneath the Stonehenge.

Can we see it?

Is that a basis for not studying it? You can’t see it? How scientific is the method of we cannot see it therefore it is not there and does not exist? By the way all of that evidence is observable and studyable

When evidence turns up, you examine it. Until then, it’s a waste of time to go “looking”, which you apparently agree with as you are not looking for evidence of a race of goatpeople living underneath the Stonehenge

I’ve pointed out that there is evidence. Including evidence people can observe. It has turned up. I didn’t suggest you make something up and go look for it. Is that what you think I’ve been saying? If there were the Tiniest fraction of reports and evidence of “goatpeople living underneath the Stonehenge” as there are of UFO’s I’d say yeah, somebody should go have a look.

North.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@north

*One problem. There was obviously no such inventor and no airship. Fraud, mass illusion, who knows, but we do know that there was nothing to it. So the Great Airship Mystery proves that a lot of people claim to see things that aren’t there.
*

Well actually it’s not obvious at all. We don’t know if there was anything to it or not. That’s why it’s still a mystery.

No, north.

No airships were built in the US in that era.
The first airships were built in Germany, by von Zeppelin.

If an airship had been built, you couldn’t keep it a secret.

Because…
they’re 300 freaking feet long, dammit!

Giant, phallic-shaped machines, soaring through the sky, leaving a train of coal smoke ( the gasoline engine wasn’t really around, back then, so steam power would have been a must) are just not something you can hide, especially in prim & proper New England.

How could you hide the helium/hydrogen storage facilities, the huge hangers?

There were no airships!
Even though hundreds reported them, & dozens claimed to be taken aboard by the inventor, there couldn’t have been one.
Even if it crashed & burned, it would have attracked unavoidable notice.

And the stories started just after Jules Verne’s Master Of The Air was published in the US; a tale about a mad inventor who builds a mysterious airship to terrorize the world.

I know where the stories came from.

UFOs have more in common with Tales To Astonish magazine than fact, for just the same reason.

As Cecil Adams put it: “Seems clear enough to me that some people lie because they profit from it, some fib because they’re sick, and some do it because they’re lying sacks of sh*t.”
The above is an instructive link. Read it, learn it, love it.

[north]

@Princhester

None of this is evidence of aliens. It’s just (even assuming it’s all true) evidence of weird stuff. None of it points to beings from outer space. Not a jot. In years past, people explained stuff they didn’t understand by reference to gods, now (in your case at least) to aliens.

How will we know where it points if we don’t study it? By the way, I never linked any of the above evidence to aliens. It is physical evidence linked to UFO sightings.

I’ve also never said that I 100% believe that aliens are visiting earth. I said I lean in that direction.

I’m starting to think I’m hitting a brick wall here. I have a headache.

North.

[Dunderman]

@north

Is that a basis for not studying it? You can’t see it? How scientific is the method of we cannot see it therefore it is not there and does not exist? By the way all of that evidence is observable and studyable

I was asking you to show us the evidence instead of alluding to its existence. Also, I would like you to make clear what exactly it is you are arguing for. You seem to be moving your point around a bit. Is your position that aliens are visiting the Earth?

[glee]

[QUOTE=glee]

So you think the biggest scientific discovery of all time is going to be ignored by researchers?
Surely Nobel prizes, fame and fortune await the first scientific analysis of alien contact!*

@north

The UFO Phenomenon is not being studied by any official public research program. I propose that it be studied in this manner. Whether or not this leads to the conclusion that there has been ongoing alien contact or not would remain to be seen. No official study, no official conclusions, no nobel prizes.

Two points.
Why do you think no research is being done, despite the fact that fame, fortune and prizes will follow?
I say it’s because the evidence isn’t worth anything.
Secondly, Project Blue Book was a lengthy piece of research. As you state, it dismissed the majority of sightings. It found no evidence of aliens.

@glee

Because there is nothing to research.*
There is only one reason - there is no evidence at all to study.

@north

Wrong. Completely wrong. Irresponsibly wrong. There is data to research. There is evidence of evidence. This is kind of a non-linear downward spiral. Scientists are both very busy and put off by the appearance of much of ufology and I don’t necessarily blame them for that. As a result however, most scientists never look at UFO evidence, which leads to their conclusion that there is no evidence. This is a self fulfilling prophecy. Given the proper environment this could possibly be turned into a favorable upward non-linearity: Given “evidence of evidence”, credibly, soberly presented, the interest of scientists can be stirred, which would presumably lead to the “discovery” by scientists that there is evidence. I’ve quoted a couple of respected scientists like Dr. Sturrock stating as much, yet you and the others seem firmly entrenched in the opposite view. This seriously boarders on the close-minded. There is data to study. There is evidence of evidence.

Why doesn’t Dr. Sturrock want a Nobel prize?!

I watched a UK TV program a few years ago called something like ‘The Best UFO sightings’.
The two main sightings were:

• a video film shot by a man who stated we were looking at the original untouched footage. It showed a blurry object, and of course we couldn’t tell how far away it was, nor how fast it was moving. On scientific analysis, it transpired the tape had been edited (which the man then admitted).

• eye-witness descriptions of a landing in a wood, complete with mysterious lights and traces of landing / takeoff. The wood backs onto a lighthouse, which regularly sweeps a beam of light into the wood. A local forester sadi the marks in the ground were made by rabbits.

@glee

Apparently every US Government since 1947 is in a gigantic conspiracy. The US military, US intelligence and US scientists are secretly analysing an alien spaceship, while denying it’s existence.

@north

Possibly. If there really is a cover-up an open research program would perhaps point to valuable indicators of opposition, if any were there.

Are you sure of this? If a team went through Area 51 and discovered nothing, wouldn’t you say the evidence had been moved?

@glee

It’s circular logic.

@north

The only circular logic here seems to be your own and others like you: We have decided there is no evidence therefore we will not seek any.

If no evidence emerges for another 50 years, won’t you say this proves what a clever conspiracy the Government runs? You have decided the evidence exists even though we can’t see it.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

Umm, north?

Posting links is very simple.
Merely Copy the web address of the page you want to cite, & paste it into the message section you wantit displayed in.

Opening a second window is helpful for this, and you can do that by click Control N.

[Wendell_Wagner]

Furthermore, posting a list of books that you would recommend is easy. Just list the name and author. You were apparently influenced in your beliefs by reading some books. If you’ll give us the names of these books, you’ll find that we’ve read many of them too and are willing to discuss them. (Don’t you understand that many of us have read a lot about UFO’s.) As we’ve said, there are only a few sorts of things that you can do that can persuade us. You can show us the physical evidence itself, but that wouldn’t work for more than one person at a time though. Or you can make some arguments, but you already have done that, and we’re not convinced. Or you can list some books, articles, or websites that make what you consider the best arguments for your case. Why don’t you do that? That’s clearly the best option. Please note, though, that simply stating that there are lots of scientific studies out there making your case isn’t good enough. You have to give us the name of the author, the title, and any other information that’s relevant to finding these studies. Incidentally, how many of these scientific studies have you read yourself? Are you just going on faith that these studies prove what you believe, or have you actually read them to understand their arguments?

[clairobscur]

@Chronos

Even if the chances were that low, we wouldn’t be alone in the Universe. We know that the Universe is at least hundreds of billions of lightyears across. .

The figure I gave was totally arbitrary. Not having a clue at what the likehood of sentient life, or even just life, appearing is, how could you assume that since the universe is huge, there must be sentient life somewhere?

Besides, even assuming that this likehood is high enough for some millions sentient species to appear, it wouldn’t matter much if said sentient species are so far away that we’ve no chance to ever interact with them. Sentient life would have to be commonplace, or very long-living, or FTL travel able for us to meet them. Even finding out that they existed at some point (say catching a message sent 100 millions years ago from a remote planet) could prove very difficult.

And I don’t rule out the possibilty that sentient life is commonplace, either. It just seems obvious to me that we’re completely clueless on this issue, hence that believing one way or the other is a complete act of faith at this point.

[clairobscur]

@north

So you think the biggest scientific discovery of all time is going to be ignored by researchers?
Surely Nobel prizes, fame and fortune await the first scientific analysis of alien contact!

The UFO Phenomenon is not being studied by any official public research program. I propose that it be studied in this manner. Whether or not this leads to the conclusion that there has been ongoing alien contact or not would remain to be seen. No official study, no official conclusions, no nobel prizes.
.

Your statements in this post don’t make sense to me. Essentially everybody on this board, apart a handfull of religious fundamentalists would be thrilled if there were aliens out there. The scientists probably even more so. We’re spending big money on the remote hope to find evidences of a mere bacteria having been living on Mars a couple billions years ago, and you’re assuming that the scientific community would hesitate to enquire into significant evidences of intelligent aliens being present here and right now?
The fact that they don’t can only be explained in two ways :

-The “evidences” have been found lacking

-There’s a huge conspiracy, all over the planet (not only in the USA) somehow preventing everybody from seriously enquiring about UFOs. Maybe people in dark suits actually come in as soon as some scientist is seriously enquiring and convince him to stay silent and study something else, but I’m not going to bet any money on this.
It’s not totally unthinkable that one specific piece of evidence, known by a limited number of people could be covered up (say, there’s a secret, well concealed, alien research station somewhere in Antarctica, or we’ve caught once a message from a remote star) , but if compelling evidences were all over the place for everybody to see as you seem to assume, it wouldn’t be ignored and it couldn’t be covered up.

[clairobscur]

@north

Yes I have. That doesn’t necessarily discount that fact that they are seeing something unusual in the sky. These people were obviously interpreting what they saw within the context of the times they lived in. The pattern throughout history is interesting though, even if it turned out to be merely psychological as you suggest.

North.

Then if you believe that they could have made a lot of “interpreting” for what they saw to fit in the current patterns, expectations, context, etc…Why would you think that their “alien spacecraft” interpretation would have more merit?

If, depending on the current trends, people can see a bright green cigar-shaped object or a metal-colored saucer-like object, then I can safely assume that their reports are unreliable.

[clairobscur]

@north

Can we see it?

Is that a basis for not studying it? You can’t see it? How scientific is the method of we cannot see it therefore it is not there and does not exist? By the way all of that evidence is observable and studyable

When evidence turns up, you examine it. Until then, it’s a waste of time to go “looking”, which you apparently agree with as you are not looking for evidence of a race of goatpeople living underneath the Stonehenge

I’ve pointed out that there is evidence. Including evidence people can observe. It has turned up. I didn’t suggest you make something up and go look for it. Is that what you think I’ve been saying? If there were the Tiniest fraction of reports and evidence of “goatpeople living underneath the Stonehenge” as there are of UFO’s I’d say yeah, somebody should go have a look.

North.

There are “evidences” for the “wild hunt” or “flying hunt” (a legend spread all over Europe : either an evil nobleman who went hunting on a holy day and as a result was condemned to hunt forever on certain nights, or the devil driving and/or hunting the doomed souls). People have heard it, have seen it, have reported it, including one of my relatives. There have been sights of yetis, of the Loch Ness monster, of ghosts (I personnally heard “ghost” moanings). There have been people studying these phenomenons. Yet, there are no compelling evidences for any of them.

Now, do you intent to investigate my great-uncle claims about the flying hunt? He didn’t make it up in order to make a point on a message board, he asserted that he without doubt witnessed it, as other people had for centuries. If you don’t intend to, why would you be more willing to investigate the claims of an (hypothetical) cousin of mine who saw a saucer similarily flying?

[DrDeth]

I will point out that even a “proven” UFO 'sighting" doesn’t prove it is an alien.

Look at it this way- the US Gov’t has been flying so rather odd aircraft -all of them top-top secret out of Roswell (and other bases) since WWII. They include early jets, rockets, flying wings, and hovercraft. And note that one aircraft that the Germans had made plans for- thus that we studied- looked EXACTLY like a UFO. Some of these aricraft had (we now know) “stealth” technology, and there are indications that early on, a sort of “invisible” (well camoflaged from ground observers) aircraft was at least considered. And, some of the aircraft that we build prototypes for have neverreached production, and still remain classified.

Thus, it is not only possible, but very likely that some UFO sightings were secret US prototypes. When someone then claims they saw it- of course the AF would deny or hush it up. They would NOT go “Oh, yes- Farmer Bubba spotted our secret stealth hovercraft prototype, and here are the plans for it.” :rolleyes: They really don’t care that North and his friends take this as “proof” of aliens- since they know it’s not.

We KNOW that there are no real close stars that have intelligent life. We KNOW you can’t travel faster than Lightspeed. Thus, it is extremely unlikely that we have been “visited”. If “They” had come- either we’d all see them (because they don’t care if we spot them) or- given their hugely superiour technology- we’d never see them. It would NOT be only “Bubba” in his cornfield that gets to see one- that is ridiculous. But it could be that Bubba spotted a “X-17A Disc hovercraft prototype”.

Use Occhams razor, man. We KNOW it is nigh impossible to get to Earth. We KNOW the AF has had things flying around they aren’t telling us about. So- when something is a “confirmed sighting”- which is it? “Little Green men”? Or the “X17A”?:dubious:

(of course- most of the time it’s Venus, etc… )

[north]

@Wendell Wagner

Furthermore, posting a list of books that you would recommend is easy. Just list the name and author. You were apparently influenced in your beliefs by reading some books. If you’ll give us the names of these books, you’ll find that we’ve read many of them too and are willing to discuss them. (Don’t you understand that many of us have read a lot about UFO’s.) As we’ve said, there are only a few sorts of things that you can do that can persuade us. You can show us the physical evidence itself, but that wouldn’t work for more than one person at a time though. Or you can make some arguments, but you already have done that, and we’re not convinced. Or you can list some books, articles, or websites that make what you consider the best arguments for your case. Why don’t you do that? That’s clearly the best option. Please note, though, that simply stating that there are lots of scientific studies out there making your case isn’t good enough. You have to give us the name of the author, the title, and any other information that’s relevant to finding these studies. Incidentally, how many of these scientific studies have you read yourself? Are you just going on faith that these studies prove what you believe, or have you actually read them to understand their arguments?

I’ve been influenced in my beliefs by doing research myself after witnessing a UFO and wanting an explanation for what I saw. Mainstream science has mostly failed me and others on this so I read many books and papers, attended lectures & personally questioned many people who have seen similar objects (I do not claim to be an expert however). Over the years I have been leaning towards the fact that UFO’s could possibly be of extraterrestrial origin. I am not 100% convinced, but I do believe the issue of UFO’s in general deserves more serious scrutiny from established science than it is getting at this time. I am not alone in this belief (just here it seems).

Everybody is asking for evidence, but it seems they want the evidence to come to them. As if that is the way science works. I say the evidence is out there to make the case for further study. Radar reports have been logged, plant samples have been taken, eyewitness reports have been documented and on and on and on.
Unfortunately I cannot give you this evidence on a silver platter which seems to be the only thing that will satisfy most of you. I can however, say this: Seek and you shall find. If you don’t seek, you don’t care to and I have wasted my time. If you have sought and have not found, give up and come to the conclusion that it’s all bunk. Or keep seeking. After all, that’s what good scientists do right? It’s a confusing minefield out there in UFO world. There are crazy theories, reality challenged people, scam artists, hucksters, and even more people simply desperate to believe we are not alone. There are some good, honest, hardworking, brilliant people working in the field of Ufology though. Some of them are ordinary people and some of them are scientists. They all look for truth. I commend them for trying.

Anyway, I have laid out my arguments as clearly as I could. If you are not convinced, either I have failed to make a compelling case with my limited intellect and debating skills; or you have already decided this matter long before I wrote one single word. In either case, I hope you gave the issue at least a second thought.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/

Give it a serious look. If it falls short let them know.
Good luck to all of you, it’s been fustrating but fun.

North.

[Chronos]

Can we see it?

Is that a basis for not studying it? You can’t see it? How scientific is the method of we cannot see it therefore it is not there and does not exist? By the way all of that evidence is observable and studyable

OK, then. Excuse me while I go close my eyes. What? No, I’m not napping. I’m researching aliens. You can’t see any of the evidence, so you study it by closing your eyes.

I mean, how else are we supposed to study evidence we can’t see? There are plenty of phenomena we can’t see, but which we nonetheless study. But we can do this because we can see the evidence of it. I can’t see subatomic particles, but I can see their tracks in bubble chambers. I can’t see molecular structures, but I can see film exposed in X-ray diffraction experiments. I can’t see gravity, but I can see an apple falling. Do you see what I’m getting at here? Evidence you can’t see (or at least, hear, or touch, or smell, or otherwise sense directly) isn’t evidence at all.

clairobscure, we’re not in disagreement. Other life in the Universe is probably far too far away to be visiting us. This is true even if life is almost guaranteed; it’s certainly true if the chances for life arising are very small. It may even be the case that they’re so far away that we can never hope to communicate with them. But it’s folly to be convinced that they don’t exist at all.

[Contrapuntal]

@north

http://www.ufoevidence.org/

Give it a serious look. If it falls short let them know.
Good luck to all of you, it’s been fustrating but fun.

North.

North, that link lists 109 UFO researchers, including Jimmy Carter! And you say not enough research is being done? I would think scads of evidence would have been comfirmed by now. I mean, if Jimmy Carter can’t get it done, who can?

[Contrapuntal]

And it lists John Mack, who, being dead, and, presumably, unconstrained by physical limitations, is in a unique position to get at the really hard to find evidence. I expect a communique via John Edwards any day now.

[north]

@trandallt

North, that link lists 109 UFO researchers, including Jimmy Carter! And you say not enough research is being done? I would think scads of evidence would have been comfirmed by now. I mean, if Jimmy Carter can’t get it done, who can?

LOL!

[Voyager]

@north

Well actually it’s not obvious at all. We don’t know if there was anything to it or not. That’s why it’s still a mystery.

No, the only mystery is about how so many people could be so deluded for so long. There were no airships. I’d think we’d have known about them if there were. Charles Fort mentioned these, by the way, but I don’t remember him talking about the people.

BTW, North have you ever considered that the aliens and their ships change appearance over time, following trends in popular culture?

Yes I have. That doesn’t necessarily discount that fact that they are seeing something unusual in the sky. These people were obviously interpreting what they saw within the context of the times they lived in. The pattern throughout history is interesting though, even if it turned out to be merely psychological as you suggest.
North.
[/QUOTE]

A lot of these are the aliens people supposedly saw. You haven’t mentioned the abduction craze, I trust you don’t believe in that. Notice no one got abducted until it showed up on TV.

I know all about the physical evidence. So why don’t the believers bring it in for analysis? It’s because when they do, there is nothing strange about the supposed alien traces. There have been no unknown alloys, no traces of alien DNA, nothing out of the ordinary. Radar contacts? Yeah, I know about them, nothing that can’t be explained by weather conditions, especially considering the relatively primitive radars of the time.

And I assure you as a scientist that there would be plenty who would be thrilled to follow up on real evidence. There is nothing impossible about an alien visitation - it is not like a perpetual motion machine or squaring the circle. But considering that scientists do have to make a living, and the record of solid evidence that turned out to be frauds, mistakes, or just not there, any decent scientist is going to want some really good data before getting started.

There would be plenty of money? Remember the venture capitalist in Silicon Valley who was sure that aliens were responsible for the development of microelectronics?

And BTW, have you ever read any of the good debunking books, like those by Philp Klass, to go along with your saucer books? I’ve read both, and Klass is a lot more believable.

[north]

@Chronos

OK, then. Excuse me while I go close my eyes. What? No, I’m not napping. I’m researching aliens. You can’t see any of the evidence, so you study it by closing your eyes.

I mean, how else are we supposed to study evidence we can’t see? There are plenty of phenomena we can’t see, but which we nonetheless study. But we can do this because we can see the evidence of it. I can’t see subatomic particles, but I can see their tracks in bubble chambers. I can’t see molecular structures, but I can see film exposed in X-ray diffraction experiments. I can’t see gravity, but I can see an apple falling. Do you see what I’m getting at here? Evidence you can’t see (or at least, hear, or touch, or smell, or otherwise sense directly) isn’t evidence at all.

clairobscure, we’re not in disagreement. Other life in the Universe is probably far too far away to be visiting us. This is true even if life is almost guaranteed; it’s certainly true if the chances for life arising are very small. It may even be the case that they’re so far away that we can never hope to communicate with them. But it’s folly to be convinced that they don’t exist at all.

Well I actually meant that the collected data from the physical evidence could be studied even if you couldn’t see the actual evidence itself (Ie: test results from a soil sample without having the actual soil sample in front of you). See what happened was I listed a bunch of physical evidence that has been collected from UFO sightings over the years (post #97) and Priceguy’s response to that was Can we see it? And I was thinking, what TF does he mean can we see it? Then I thought maybe he wanted me to show everybody the evidence personally or post it in 3d online or…and then I got a headache and, oh never mind. Sure, I was suggesting that we study “invisible” evidence.

North.

[Una_Persson]

@clairobscur

There have been sights of yetis, of the Loch Ness monster, of ghosts (I personnally heard “ghost” moanings). There have been people studying these phenomenons. Yet, there are no compelling evidences for any of them.

In agreement here.

I have a Super-8 video I took myself at Loch Ness of the Loch Ness Monster. Seriously. When this video has been shown to friends, their hair sort of stands on end. They believe and say “holy shit, wtf is that?”

Then, finally, the lead of moving chain of semi-blurry blobs in the mist lets out a sound:

“Quack! Quack! Quack!”

Yes, it’s a train of ducks on the water, in dim light (about 1:00pm…hey, it was Scotland) and with some mist. And it fooled me and about 100+ others at Castle Urqhart.

Videos don’t tell the truth. And hundreds of observers who expect to see something, see it. Even I, a very skeptical person, had a brief moment of “umm…this can’t be…”.

Someday I will transfer the video to an MPEG and post it. It’s a hoot.