I am Episcopalian. One of the things we are taught is not to evangelize, but to lead a good life. Theoretically, by virtue of my good life other people will want to be like me and become if not Episc, at least Christian.
I absolutely can NOT see this happening. How would that go?
You: Say, KXL, you’ve got it all: health, a good marriage, a good job.
Me: Well, I’m Episcopalian.
You: Say, it seems to be working for you. I think I’ll become Episcopalian too.
WTF?!
I’ve heard anecdotal reports of people becoming Scientologists because Tom Cruise and John Travolta are (Hint to those using that as a basis of conversion: They were millionaire movie stars to begin with. YMMV), but has anyone who was, say, Jewish, looked around and said, “Hmm, my Christian friends seem to have a much better life. I’m gonna try that for a while?”
You’re misinterpreting “lead a good life.” Very few people think the point of religion is to get you a high-paying job. You’re supposed to lead a good life in the sense of being a really good person and making people look up to you, so they’ll say, “You know, I always thought Christians were jerks, but that KXL sure is a swell guy. Maybe there’s something to Christianity after all.”
I was a hard agnostic who was, frankly, rather prejudiced toward organized religion a couple years ago. It was the good example of some of my Christian friends that led to me softening my position on religion - they were all really kind, funny, intelligent people who were nothing at all like the stereotype of intolerant puritanical Christian fundies. Their example led to me spending a lot of time reading up on Christianity. I’m not quite a Christian now, but I am a theist, and Christian thought has had a lot of influence on my personal theology.
Some years back, my atheism was experientially and personally falsified–which is to say, I started being gobsmacked by the sacredness immanent in all. Or I started having mild, non-impairing temporal lobe seizures–all depends on the point of view.
If I hadn’t pretty much gelled into a Buddhist framework in the intervening time, an example like Polycarp’s would have made me seriously consider Christianity.
Such examples are very rare. I’m pretty sure that’s why the importance of striving towards them is urged, because as rare as it is, witnessing without that example is even more useless.
My grandfather was raised Catholic. During WWII, he served in the Navy. His ship saw action-where and what I’m not sure-and all but one of the chaplains went below out of danger. He swore that if he lived through it, he would convert to that man’s religion. As it happened, he was Lutheran, and my grandfather has been ever since.
Would this count as a conversion to due a sterling example?
I have sometimes thought that my christian friends seem to be nicer people, and that is a factor in my decision. It hasn’t tipped the scales yet, but it could have done, so keep at it.
(For the record, I decided that I wasn’t sure if it was coincidence, or ‘cause and effect’ or ‘effect and cause’ and anyway, if I started believing in things just because I wanted to I might end up believing all sorts of nonsense.)
i have this friend who i consider an idiot (buts thats another thread) who went to this kooky church and was WAY into the whole thing. Played guitar at the service, worked at the church, wife worked at the church, mowed the church grass, on and on ad-neauseam.
Turns out he swithed churches at the drop of a hat.
the congregation of the old church dwindled down to just the paster’s family and my idiot friend. The pasters little girl didn’t get along with my friends little girl. Poof! Now, there members of “Church X”!
What the Fuck? This isn’t like changing brands of deodorant! I mean, isn’t this whole church stuff what you are basing your belief structure around? You can just “change it” like a TV channel? Seems to me this demonstrates a real conviction in your belief…
(strange side note: this guy has an amazing string of the worst luck ever. The more bad shit happens to him, the harder he prays and the worse it gets. I’m a proud atheist and its nothing but sunshine and raisins for me! [did i mention i just won a mexican cruise for me and the wife?] When life takes a shit on me, it always ends up smelling like flowers! I wonder if it secretly pisses this guy off? :D)
anyway, i wish this guy would remove his self-imposed blinders of reason and join the ranks of the thinking.
Gatopescado, I think that this phenomenon is more common than you think it is, especially among the various Protestant sects. Most churchgoers don’t know all the picky little differences between denominations. They might pick a church because they like the pastor or something like that, not caring much about the difference between Methodists and Presbyterians. My parents have been known to do that very thing–then again, we certainly are not the world’s most religious family by any means.
I moved recently, and I got several letters from local churches inviting me to come check them out if I was in need of “a new church home”. Some of the letters seemed to imply that we might be “shopping around”. I would guess that some people do shop around. Others stick with the denomination of their childhoods, even though they may not agree with many of the church’s teachings.
If people are willing to try a church based on a glossy brochure, then a church member’s good example couldn’t hurt either, I guess.
In my opinion, this is the problem with organized relgion. People shouldn’t be basing their belief structure on “this whole church stuff,” they should be basing their religion on moral conviction and ethics.
My belief that murder is wrong did not come about because “the Bible says so” or some church spews it forth as dogma. My belief that murder is wrong comes from the fact that I don’t want to be murdered and I have the intellectually capacity to hypothetically switch roles with other people. In other words, I don’t want to die, so I think its safe to assume other human beings don’t want to die. This is effectively the golden rule, but I think that’s morality, not religion.
As to the OP: I just can’t fathom thinking that someone’s life is good or bad because of their religious affiliation. Episcopalians are capable of leading worthy lives. Lutherans are capable of leading worthy lives. Catholics are capable of leading worthy lives. Jews are capable of leading worthy lives. Muslims are capable of leading worthy lives. And believe it or not, Athiests are capable of leading worthy lives.
While it may be their religious upbringing that lead them to lead worthy lives, I don’t believe one religious denomination will make them more worthy than any other. If you need to look to someone else for guidance on leading a worthy life, look at the aspects of their life that make it worthy. Do they do volunteer work? Do they give to charities? Base your life on those examples, not on what church they attend.