Changes to Randi's Challenge

Great Debates
341

Of course, you are not qualified to say how those with paranormal powers would feel either. What I can say for certain is that the fact that nobody has claimed the prize says very little about the existence of paranormal powers. Aside from those with paranormal powers who value their anonymity, there are also those with dangerous powers, those who can make more than one million dollars through their powers, those who fear experimentation, etc. Even if I did have paranormal powers, I would deny it on a public message board.

Regardless, my opinion of the changes has nothing to do with psychoanalyzing paranormal people. The reason I don’t think the changes make the test too selective is because the lures of the test are still prize money and fame. Anyone who has paranormal powers and wants to use them to get prize money and fame will find a way to gain the required notoriety to take the test. If they do not want to give up their anonymity for prize money and fame, then they would never have taken the test in the first place. Thus the changes exclude nobody with actual paranormal powers.

342

Well, by Occam’s razor, the simpler answer to your conundrum isn’t that paranormal people have a uniform need for privacy, but that paranormal people don’t exist. This alleged need for anonymity makes for handy excuse, but it’s quite at odds with conventional psychology that suggests people with ability tend to display it.

343

[QUOTE=nitetime]
Of course, you are not qualified to say how those with paranormal powers would feel either.
[/QUOTE]
It was your assertion, not his. Until the existence of paranormal powers is proven, it is pointless to state anything at all about the behavior of those possessing it, which is the meat of your argument.

From where comes this certainty? It is a strong word, requiring strong evidence. What is yours?

Why do you ignore the numerous claimants to the prize who have failed? They believe that they have paranormal powers, and they are not afraid to show it.

Can you name, or even describe, say, one? One person who is making more than a million dollars through paranormal powers? Just a description will suffice, so as to preserve the anonymity.

Say what? I though that denial was a function of a wish for anonymity. Where is the danger of losing that on a message board? Are you using your real name?

344

But, you see, if some stickler like say, me, saw that the impressive results being publicized were only those of one of several groups that day, I would have a go at Randi for falling prey to blatant publication bias.

We’re his peers, and we’re reviewing the test right here in a public forum. Personally, I haven’t seen anything whatsoever which leads me to believe that someone with a geniune paranormal ability wouldn’t actually get the million. (And I would hope that we both agree that $1M should not be awarded to the person who shows that Randi said something inaccurate.)

This is an interesting legal point, actually. I suggest that it is in many ways a reward much like Carlill v. Carbolic Smoke Ball, in which one does indeed “contract with the whole world” in this way, with the offer being accepted upon full completion. I’m curious - how does the JREF itself classify the challenge in terms of Contract Law?

345

[QUOTE=SentientMeat]
This is an interesting legal point, actually. I suggest that it is in many ways a reward much like Carlill v. Carbolic Smoke Ball, in which one does indeed “contract with the whole world” in this way, with the offer being accepted upon full completion. I’m curious - how does the JREF itself classify the challenge in terms of Contract Law?
[/QUOTE]
I think the point is that the application does not become a contract until the protocols are agreed upon. Simply applying does not evoke a contractual obligation.

346

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
It was your assertion, not his. Until the existence of paranormal powers is proven, it is pointless to state anything at all about the behavior of those possessing it, which is the meat of your argument.
[/quote]

Actually it was his assertion. He said that “if there was someone out there who could really do something paranormal they would have won the prize by now.”

I said that I thought someone with real paranormal powers would likely not want it revealed to the world. I am not making an assertion, just saying that his argument is not necessarily sound.

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Why do you ignore the numerous claimants to the prize who have failed? They believe that they have paranormal powers, and they are not afraid to show it.
[/quote]

That is probably because they are either a) crazy, b) stupid, or c) not convinced of their own ability. Also, in many cases the abilities they attempt to prove are rather trivial, if not for their paranormal nature.

It is conceivable that the potential for paranormal ability exists in all humans, but requires a certain mindset to unlock. Intelligence and sobriety being two of the requirements. Those who are capable of paranormal activity are the same type of people who recognize the drawbacks of their abilities becoming public knowledge.

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Can you name, or even describe, say, one? One person who is making more than a million dollars through paranormal powers?
[/quote]

I cannot, of course; I never said I believed paranormal powers even existed, let alone that I was aware of anyone using them to amass a fortune. But I trust that you can easily think of paranormal powers which could be used for financial gain in an amount greater than one million dollars. Or for that matter, dangerous powers, or simply powers that cause one to fear experimentation on oneself.

347

[QUOTE=nitetime]
I said that I thought someone with real paranormal powers would likely not want it revealed to the world.
[/quote]
Those aren’t the people the Challenge is going after. It’s the ones on Larry King or Montel Williams who are doing their best to publicize their “powers” and are raking in the dough for parlor tricks. There are enough of those to go around, and the only thing they are shy about is proving their powers actually exist.

348

So you are proposing, nitetime, that every single person on the face of the Earth that has genuine paranormal abilities will not come forward because of the reason you stated? Not one person on this planet feels that it would be worth trading a bit of infamy for a cool million?

349

[QUOTE=nitetime]
It is conceivable that the potential for paranormal ability exists in all humans, but requires a certain mindset to unlock. Intelligence and sobriety being two of the requirements. Those who are capable of paranormal activity are the same type of people who recognize the drawbacks of their abilities becoming public knowledge.
[/QUOTE]

In other words, that it is different from all other known human talents and abilities. Musical ability, mathematical ability, high capabilities in known senses - all of these occur not only in intelligent and sane people, but also in crazy people and people such as autistic savants. Intelligence alone is often not correlated with common sense or good judgement. While it is possible that there is an invariant connection between paranormal abilities and intelligence and common sense, that seems even more far-fetched than the existence of paranormal abilities themselves.

While I agree that an intelligent person with real paranormal abilities could make a lot more than $1 million by concealing them, the supposition that all people with real paranormal abilities would choose to do so is extremely unlikely.

350

[QUOTE=nitetime]
.I cannot, of course; I never said I believed paranormal powers even existed, let alone that I was aware of anyone using them to amass a fortune. But I trust that you can easily think of paranormal powers which could be used for financial gain in an amount greater than one million dollars. Or for that matter, dangerous powers, or simply powers that cause one to fear experimentation on oneself.
[/QUOTE]
You said this – bolding mine.

Who are those people?

351

[QUOTE=SentientMeat]
(And I would hope that we both agree that $1M should not be awarded to the person who shows that Randi said something inaccurate.)

[/quote]

Then what’s the point of the challenge?

We were talking about phony hi-fi equipment earlier in the thread. So Randi issues his challenge to the makers of a particular device. Randi says that he doesn’t believe the device works at all. He tells them that they can win a million dollars by proving their device works.

What if they are telling the truth all along. Their device works, it works on known scientific principles, it isn’t paranormal. Taking the test will not demonstrate anything paranormal, it will only show Randi to be wrong.
What if Randi realises his mistake AFTER they send in their application, but BEFORE the test. Can he say “it’s not paranormal” and refuse the test?

What if he goes through with the test, and realises his mistake AFTER the test. Can he say “it’s not paranormal” and refuse to pay the prize?
The challenge only means anything if he pays up when he’s proven to be wrong. If he doesn’t then what’s the point?

In that case, the Smoke Ball company’s advertising was taken as a legally binding “offer to all the world.”

Randi’s challenge is (I think) an invitation to treat. Not an enforceable offer, unfortunately.

Princhester, your comments please?

352

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Why do you ignore the numerous claimants to the prize who have failed? They believe that they have paranormal powers, and they are not afraid to show it.
[/QUOTE]

Just for the record, what “numerous people” are you talking about? It seems that very few have ever taken the challenge. Randi seems to be testing about 1 maybe 2 people per year.

353

[QUOTE=Peter Morris]
What if Randi realises his mistake AFTER they send in their application, but BEFORE the test. Can he say “it’s not paranormal” and refuse the test?
[/quote]
Yes.

No.

354

[QUOTE=Peter Morris]
Just for the record, what “numerous people” are you talking about? It seems that very few have ever taken the challenge. Randi seems to be testing about 1 maybe 2 people per year.
[/QUOTE]
OK. Change it to “numbers of people.” The point obtains.

355

so, you contact the people that make the hi-fi device in question and tell them that they could make a million by applying to Randi.

They write back to you and tell you that Randi is mistaken, their device isn’t paranormal and therefore not eligible for the prize.

What do you say to them?

By your theory if they are telling the truth then Randi is entitled to back out of the test.

356

Randi challenges people all the time, but the requirements for the Million Dollar Challenge are very specific.

  1. You send in a properly filled out application form.
  2. They review said form to see if what is being claimed qualifies for the Challenge.
  3. The specifics are worked out with the claimant as to how the test will be conducted.
  4. The specifics are worked out with the claimant as to what qualifies as a successful result.
  5. The test is then conducted.
  6. If said claimant goes through with the test as was previously agreed upon, and if said claimant is successful in passing the test as was previously agreed upon, said claimant gets $1,000,000, and the fame and fortune that goes along with it.
  7. James Randi gets the fame and fortune that will most certainly come from being the first person in history to find solid evidence of paranormal abilities.

If you follow any other procedure, you don’t get the money.
'Nuff said.

357

But can Randi issue a challenge and then back out of it?

358

[QUOTE=Peter Morris]
But can Randi issue a challenge and then back out of it?
[/QUOTE]
Peter, you are really, really, really grasping at straws here, looking for loopholes that do not exist and really trying our patience. The Challenge as posted is NOT a CONTRACT with anyone, let alone the entire world. It does not become a contract until the stated detail conditions are met as agreed upon by both parties. Up until that occurs, it is only a draft outline of what may become a legal contract. So any party, at any time, may make suggestions and changes up to the final contract signing. If an applicant makes a claim that Randi does not feel can be tested or does not qualify for the prize, it is not backing out to refuse to continue with the negotiations. Conversely, if Randi decides to accept a claim that may or may not paranormal by anyone’s definition, including yours, that is his business, since it is clearly stated in the Challenge, “Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated…” (bolding mine).

To sum up, if you define “issuing a challenge” as posting a dare on a web site without details and without both sides agreeing, yes, Randi can back out.

But if you define it as a legally binding contract, no, he cannot without legal repercussions.

Most applicants’ claims are stupid or incomprehensible. Are you suggesting that they all must be accepted and proceed to a test without knowing just what is claimed and how to test it? Ridiculous!

Let’s try it this way: I, Musicat, publicly state for the world to see that I will give you $100 if and when I feel like it.

PM: I’ll take it.
Musicat: No you won’t, and we’re done here.

I issued a challenge, then “backed out” of it. Sue me.

359

[QUOTE=Musicat]
Peter, you are really, really, really grasping at straws here, looking for loopholes that do not exist and really trying our patience.
[/QUOTE]
**Peter **believes that Randi has been challenging dowsers for many years to find a dry spot. Seizing on the words “challenge” and “Randi,” he believes that this means that Randi has specifically challenged him under the rules of the JREF Challenge. It is really quite bizarre.

P.S. I’ll take your challenge for $50.00. Double no take-backs. Where shall I send my Paypal info?

360

[QUOTE=Musicat]
Peter, you are really, really, really grasping at straws here, looking for loopholes that do not exist and really trying our patience.
[/QUOTE]

no, what I’m doing is pointing out basic flaws in the challenge that you already know about, but refuse to acknowledge.

Randi issues a challenge, saying “i don’t believe this device works”

Someone steps forward willing to prove that it DOES work. It’s not paranormal, Randi is just wrong.

Can Randi back out of the test? Yes or no? Its a simple enough question.