When all around you answer “Yes” and you keep reading it as “No,” can you give an explanation of why you keep trying?
Regardless whether or not Randi believes that a specific event is not possible because he thinks that it relies on imaginary paranormal abilities, the Challenge is worded differently. It is an open challenge to anyone who believes that they can demonstrate paranormal powers. Period.
If Randi woke up tomorrow and oddly decided that e-mail was based on the paranormal because it employed daemons, it would have no effect on the Challenge unless some idiot actually went to JREF and claimed that he could cause electronic transmissions of text by employing magical daemons. (He would, of course, be laughed out of the forum because there arew enough techs associated with JREF to know how the word daemon is employed.)
It is a truly odd reading of the Challenge to ignore all the statements in the Challenge pointing to the paranormal and the need for the challenger to assert paranormal involvement and then to claim that if Randi made a statement in a completely different context, someone could try to include a rebuttal of Randi’s error with a claim that did not involve the paranormal.
The printed Challenge is very clear that one needs to assert a paranormal power to invoke the Challenge and the printed Challenge is the only one that carries the weight of a contract proposal in law.
Look at this challenge that Randi issued.
http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-06/060906just.html#i4
If the device works, but isn’t paranormal, and Randi is simply mistaken to doubt it, can he refuse to perform the test?
Think very carefully before you answer.
It isn’t a valid challenge because they refuse to apply to take the challenge., therefore Mr. Randi cannot refuse to take the test-there is NO test to back out of. Can you show us one single example of Mr. Randi backing out of an actual test that had already been agreed upon by both parties?
If the device works, i.e. passes the test and wins the Challenge, how would Randi know it is not paranormal? They don’t care about how or why it works, only whether it does.
And why is that?
Because he’s telling the truth, his device works fine, but isn’t paranormal. Could that be the reason?
Is it possible that he doesn’t apply ONLY because he knows that Randi will say “it’s not paranormal” and refuse to pay him?
Maybe it’s already happened.
If his device isn’t paranormal, and he applies, how would YOU feel about it.
cite?
I’ve heard Randi fans say this a lot. I can’t find any direct quotes from Randi himself.
All of this supposition doesn’t matter, because they never applied, therefore he never refused to pay out. It doesn’t matter if they supposedly read his mind about what he would do if they applied, it doesn’t matter if you assume, contrary to all the testing that has been done on the device, that it works, and it doesn’t matter that “maybe it already happened”(what the hell are you talking about, btw? Are you claiming that the test was done in secret, they passed the test, and they refuse to publicize the fact that they won??)
They didn’t apply.
He didn’t refuse the application they didn’t fill out.
He didn’t back out of the test they didn’t apply for.
Have you read the application for the JREF $1M Challenge? (My bolding)
Must…resist…hitting…reply…button…
Would a direct quote from the Challenge text be close enough for you?
Why should they apply, exactly? What would be the reward if the apply?
I’ll tell you what. If they apply for the test, and are willing to prove that they are telling the truth, here’s what will happen.
First Randi will withdraw and refuse to actually conduct the test.
Then he’ll get flamed to death by irate Randi fans, who think it unfair to apply with something that isn’t paranormal.
$1M USD.
You have been asked if this has ever happened, and have not responded. On what do you base this claim?
By “he” do you mean the applicant? Has an applicant ever been flamed to death after Randi has backed out of a test?
In the light of my cite, and Musicat’s cite, are you prepared to admit that the Challenge is not concerned with how a claim works, but only whether it works. Will you answer this question, asked previously?
To reward those with clear paranormal abilities for the revolution in modern physics heralded by their discovery, not to place an old man on some pedestal of infallibility.
Well, I would actually include perpetual motion machines within the Challenge’s ambit since they are so utterly forbidden by the current scientific paradigm. They might also be investing their device with some kind of spiritualist element rather like a ouija board.
On the other hand, yes, they might merely be poorly versed in electrical engineering and have made something which doesn’t work. Or, yes again, they might have had a stroke of genius and invented something truly revolutionary.
The thing is, it would only be when the application came in that the JREF could establish whether it would win the prize if it were successful. Indeed, part of the rationale for the current changes is because of the huge drain of resources caused by simply trying to find out what a given applicant is actually claiming, even with weeks or months of email correspondence. Heck, even I could recognise a particular John Cage record solely from the large area of unblemished vinyl. But if I merely said “I can tell which record is which without hearing it”, a little more information would be required since I might be claiming to “feel the silent harmonics” or some such bullshit. The JREF surely must have the right to refuse received applications, don’t you think?
I wouldn’t have thought so, no. Having perused the application, the JREF would probably tell the applicants to contact the IEEE or something instead.
What?! Christ, $1M per wrong answer or statement? That would make it frigging expensive for him to play Trivial Pursuits.
:rolleyes:
What the hell do you mean I’ve not responded? I’ve set up a whole website to draw attention to my response.
Yes, Randi HAS issued challenges, then backed out, claiming “it’s not paranormal”
Well, what about the wine clip guy? He says that his device isn’t paranormal. Randi has challenged him to prove that it works.
So, if he’s telling the truth, what then? If he’s telling the truth, then his claim isn’t paranormal. And he never said otherwise.
How would you feel if he took Randi’s challenge? If he wanted to demonstrate a claim that he says isn’t paranormal in the first place.
If he proves he’s telling the truth, does he get the money? Since he hasn’t done anything paranormal, just proved Randi to be wrong.
The wine clip guy’s claim IS paranormal. He may say it’s not, but the entire substance of his claims about the device is paranormal. If I were to claim that I could speak to dead spirits, that would be a paranormal claim even if I said “but it’s not paranormal.”
The wine clip guy’s claims are 100% paranormal hokum, irrespective of his semantic quibbling to the contrary. That’s why Randi challenged him. YOUR challenge had nothing to do with paranormal activity, which is why they didn’t let you “test.” You need to get over your obsession with James Randi, or at least stop polluting our threads with it. Nobody cares about your beef with him.
SentientMeat:
With all due respect, that’s not correct. Neither of those are the purpose of the Challenge.
The PURPOSE was to discredit prominent con men like Uri Geller and James van Praagh and to convince the general public to be more skeptical. Of course, Randi has no expectation that the prize will ever be awarded, since he knows ESP, telekinesis and such things don’t exist, but not losing a million bones isn’t the point, either; you could do that simply by not having a Challenge at all. The Challenge is meant to present Sylvia Browne et al. with an impossible conundrum; if you can do the shit you say you can why aren’t you taking the old man’s money? And, ideally, then the public would think “Hey, yeah; why ISN’T she taking the test? Maybe she’s full of crap.”
The Challenge has failed, as I mentioned in another thread, because it’s had no effect on the big time scam artists; instead, it’s been ignored by the big time cons AND the general public, and the applications have mostly come from nutballs and weirdos. That is why Randi is changing it; he wants to go after the big fish, which was his intent all along.
No, because Randi didn’t follow his own rules in my application.
Such a silly and trivial question. It’s hardly worth bothering with. But since you go on about it so much :
Q: If the device works, i.e. passes the test and wins the Challenge, how would Randi know it is not paranormal?
A: He’d know it’s not paranormal if someone told him the known scientific principles behind the device.
Now, will you answer my questions, which you keep on dodging?
The trouble with that is that James Randi himself has spent 25 years saying that my claims ARE paranormal. HE was the one that said it’s challenge worthy.
Are you saying that he’s been talking through his butt for all that time?
And is it possible that he is equally ill-informed about the wine clip ?
So what if he was? He probably was partially mistaken, especially in the mind of an ultra-nitpicker like you, but so what? Hasn’t he stopped making the statements you keep repeating? No one worships Randi except you, Peter, and no one else would be shocked, surprised, or orgasmic to learn that he made a mistake.
And I’ll repeat this statement again since you have not acknowledged it and it is worth repeating: The JREF $1million Challenge is NOT the “Prove Randi Wrong Challenge”. Period.
So why do people keep listening to him when he is so very ill-informed about so much?
No, her continues to make them. They are central to his tales, and he will keep on saying them.
It amazes me how you keep on making excuses for him.
Yest again you are lying. I’ve answered that question already. Claiming that I haven’t shows just how desperate and dishonest you are.
“prove me wrong and win a million dollars” Those are Randi’s words. That is how he describes his challenge. That is what it’s all about. But then you obviously know better than he does how his challenge works.
And perhaps you would care to answer some of the questions I’ve asked, which you keep on dodging.
“Prove me wrong in my assertion that claims of paranormal abilities are false.”
NOT
“Prove me wrong when I say my farts don’t stink and then I go and rip a sulfur-bomb.”
This coming from the Lord of all Question Dodgers. Please list which questions I have dodged by citing when and where they were asked, with hyperlinks.