Of course it would be ideal if we all acted intelligently at all times to mitigate our chances of bad things happening to us. Of course people act stupidly all the time (I certainly do). Acting stupidly in no way makes the Bad Things[sup]TM[/sup] less bad or excusable.
No, it isn’t any less bad. And you’re right. I’m just pointing out that people have often said things like, “What did you think was going to happen” in regard to victims of rape or sexual assault who have put themselves in what they consider to be bad situations.
And everything I’ve ever seen says that rape and child molestation have a very HIGH level of false accusations. And that “40 %” is probably the minimum, not the maximum; the usual number I’ve heard for both is in the 60% range. As for a rape claim being false, I recall that the FBI got those numbers when using DNA tests, demonstrating that those men didn’t have sex with the accuser at all.
As for claiming that it’s men’s fault for not being prudent, if men were prudent about sex under our present system they wouldn’t have sex with women at all, ever. They’d be like they are with kids and be worried about even looking at them.
And as for blaming feminists; besides the kind of excuses for false accusations and sneering at men seen in this thread, at least some feminists have publicly called for and approved of the making of false accusations. With little if any public disagreement from the ones who didn’t actually come out and say they approved. It’s not the right wing media that destroyed feminism’s reputation; feminism did it to itself.
Wow. Just Wow.
That concern over men being falsely accused of rape is overblown. I’m not claiming that such things never happen, but they don’t happen nearly often enough to justify the way that some people go on about it. I’m not talking about people who have actually been the victim of false accusations (they’re entitled to complain at length if they wish), but it seems that whenever there’s a thread about a rape case here someone has to post “But maybe the woman is lying, and then the poor innocent man’s life will be ruined!”
*No, I am pointing out that women are held to a different standard than men when it comes to accepting responsibility for the consequences of their own bad decisions. I don’t believe that it’s ever fair for someone to be falsely accused of a crime. But plenty of people seem to think that whenever the subject of rape comes up, it’s a good time to talk about how women need to be more careful in their behavior and take responsibility for the fact that their behavior could get them into bad situations.
So why don’t we hear this about men who are victims of false rape accusations? We don’t even hear it about men who express concern that they might be the victims of false rape accusations. If I said I was worried that I might someday be raped, I think it would be fair enough for someone else to say that I could reduce (not eliminate) the odds of this happening by taking sensible precautions like not walking through unfamiliar neighborhoods at night, not drinking to excess, not leaving my drink unattended, etc. In fact, women are regularly given just that kind of advice. Google “rape safety tips” and you’ll see plenty.
But I don’t think I’ve ever heard it suggested that men could help protect themselves from being falsely accused of rape by taking sensible precautions like establishing that their intended partner really does want to have sex, and recognizing that a woman who is falling down drunk or emotionally/mentally unstable may not be the best choice of sexual partner even if she seems interested at the time.
I’m not saying that a woman who consents to sex has the right to change her mind retroactively, but 1) sometimes the woman didn’t actually consent and 2) just because a woman consents doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to have sex with her!
Let me stress again, I have the utmost sympathy for ACTUAL innocent victims of false rape accusations. I do not have sympathy for men who whine about how unfair it is that they can’t have sex with any woman they like without having to worry that she’ll change her mind the next morning and make a false rape accusation. I’ve seen a lot more of the latter than the former.
Our most recent thread on how unfair it is for men to have to pay child support if they didn’t actually want to have a baby was just a few days ago. Do a search on “child support” and see all the irresponsible whiners who come out of the woodwork to complain about how unfair it is that men can’t just impregnate women and then wash their hands of all responsibility.
*I am pointing out that there are plenty of folks who will jump at the opportunity to castigate such a woman, but that one never seems to hear anything similar said about the man.
*I have seen exactly that sentiment expressed on these very boards many, many times. We just had a thread on precisely that subject.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with going home with a woman you’ve just met, but if you choose to trust strangers then sometimes bad things will happen to you. It would be nice if nobody had to worry about such things, but that’s not the way of the world.
Do I feel sorry for people who have horrible things happen to them? Sure. Do I feel sorry for people who complain about the possibility that something horrible might happen to them, particularly when the odds of that horrible thing can be reduced by taking reasonable precautions? Not really, no.
40% of the time - minimum - isn’t enough ?
Yeah, right. :rolleyes: Usually such threads are composed of Internet tough guys and gals talking about the awful things they’d like to do to the accused. And the possibility of innocence on the man’s part is treated like something ridiculous.
Yes; they blame men, most of the time.
“Plenty of people” ? Usually, it’s one or two at most, and they get shouted down.
We do. We are. RIGHT HERE.
Because that wouldn’t do much good. The only practical advice for a man who wants to avoid such an accusation is to never be alone with a woman without either witnesses ( who aren’t her friends ), or without being recorded on video. And to never have sex with a woman under any circumstances. Which is impractical advice, and men wouldn’t accept it even if it was practical, and therefore it’s not given.
Oh, please. Do you think men are precognitive and telepathic ? Men have to worry about that with EVERY woman. Men tend to ignore it because the alternative is lifelong celibacy.
Don’t be silly. whenever the subject comes up - like now - we hear plenty about how everything is the man’s fault, and about how men who worry about their lives being ruined are “whiners”. Like you are doing.
Funny how that if that’s said about women, the people who say so are monsters; but when said about men the men who complain are “whiners”.
You don’t sound like you feel sorry at all for men who are falsely accused ( or any man under any circumstances, probably ). Or that you would believe that it actually happened to them. You DO sound like someone who would lecture a falsely accused man about how it’s his fault for going to a woman’s apartment at her invitation, and that he’s probably a liar as well.
I don’t know if this will help to clarify my position, but I want to make it very clear that I’m not into victim blaming. Bad things happen to people who are careful, and bad things also happen to people who make foolish mistakes. But who among us has never made a foolish mistake?
When other people’s mistakes lead to bad consequences, it’s pretty callous to say “Well, maybe you could have avoided this whole situation if you’d bothered to use a condom/wear a seatbelt/take your wallet with you/check their references/whatever.” If someone keeps making the same mistake again and again or seems to not realize that they made a foolish decision then that’s a different story, but if someone is already suffering the consequences of their poor decision then there’s no need to rub it in.
The time to point out the potential negative consequences of bad decisions are BEFORE those consequences actually occur. A lot of effort has been put into teaching women that there are certain things they should and should not do in order to reduce their chances of being raped. I’m not at all opposed to this as long as the advice is reasonable. “Don’t leave your drink unattended” is good, “women who wear miniskirts are asking for it” is not.
Yet although some people seem to see false accusations of rape as being as bad a problem as actual rape, no one seems to want to say that there are certain things men should and should not do if they want to reduce their chances of being falsely accused. Instead it’s always how the feminists spoiled everything, or what lying bitches women are, or how unfair it is that it’s so easy to ruin a man’s life. (That phrase “ruin his life” comes up a LOT.) Why is that?
I think it’s because there are a lot (again, not all, not even most, but a lot) of men who are unwilling to take responsibility for their own behavior. If a man is worried that a woman will change her mind and “cry rape” the next morning then he shouldn’t have sex with her in the first place. It’s not that difficult to do. In college I once turned down a drunken proposition from someone who I was attracted to but who I knew to have serious issues and who I correctly guessed would claim no memory of the offer the next morning. This was an easy decision to make, not just because it’s wrong to take advantage of the drunk and weak-willed but because I care about protecting myself from accusations of being a predatory slut.
I did search, and while your link is directly about someone asking a question as to why men can’t just walk away, by far and away the consensus was that men should not be allowed to do so. You are strongly implying the overall consensus of this board is that men should be able to just walk away. Two people in the thread you linked expressed that opinion. I hardly think that represents the leanings of this board.
So you are saying SOME people have a double standard? I know of at least one more…
Sounds like you’d like to hold the men to a higher standard of responsibility than the women, and you don’t feel sorry for women that worry about getting raped:dubious:
Because it DOES ruin his life. Worse in some ways that being raped, since it’s due to OTHER people persecuting him, and not emotional trauma that he can at least in theory get over. Not that there isn’t emotional trauma as well. And it’s because women do often lie about this, and because feminists encourage and excuse such lies ( no doubt some don’t - but they tend to be silent ). And because there’s little a man can do to “reduce their chances of being falsely accused”, short of lifetime celibacy and isolation from women.
Being celibate for life ? Yes, most men find it hard.
Please; you would have been regarded as a victim, and him as a rapist.
From the Purdue study linked to in phouka’s post:
"agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be.
for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge
it should be noted that this department does not confuse reported rape attempts with completed rapes. Thus, the rape complainants referred to in this paper are for completed forcible rapes only.
In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false
the policy of this police agency is to apply a statute regarding the false reporting of a felony. After the recant, the complainant is informed that she will be charged with filing a false complaint, punishable by a substantial fine and a jail sentence. In no case, has an effort been made on the part of the complainant to retract the recantation."
I can’t speak to its accuracy, but the methods they claim are compelling
Absolutely! You will join me in excoriating robbery victims for being so silly as to own property, yes?
Wow. Just wow.
Oh come on. Being accused of a crime you did not commit is a terrible thing, but somehow people who’ve suffered that and even worse manage to carry on.
*I don’t see what’s so difficult about 1) making sure that one’s potential sexual partner gives a clear indication of consent and 2) avoiding sex with people who seem unstable, untrustworthy, or unconscious. Unless you think all women lie about consenting to sex, then I can see where you’d find it tricky.
*I very much doubt that most men go their whole lives without meeting one woman who actually wants to have sex with them and isn’t crazy or vindictive enough to pretend otherwise the next morning. But if you can’t find one decent, honest, and sober woman willing to sleep with you then you’re better off staying home and watching a porno.
*That is a very interesting interpretation of the situation. I’m not sure which part of it is more interesting, that bit where you assume that I would consent to sex and then lie about it, or where you assume that my very drunk and very confused acquaintance was a man.
To use an analogy I hate but that always gets trotted out when rape is the subject, there’s a pretty big difference between having $100 bill and waving it around while walking alone through the streets of a “bad” neighborhood.
Once an innocent but foolish person has fallen victim to a crime then it’s too late to warn them about what might happen. It’s already happened and rubbing their noses in their mistakes is rarely helpful. But if there’s nothing wrong with suggesting to a woman that it’s unwise to leave her drink unattended, drink to excess while among people she doesn’t trust, allow a strange man to carry her groceries in or give her a ride home, walk alone at night, or do any of the other things women are advised not to do in order to reduce their risk of being raped, then I don’t see what’s so terrible about suggesting to men that they can reduce their risk of being accused of rape by being observant, careful, and using good judgment.
I recently saw a poster in another thread offer the advice “don’t stick your dick in the crazy”. Being accused of rape is just one of many bad things that could happen to a man who has sex with a crazy or otherwise untrustworthy woman. Maybe she lied about being on the Pill. Maybe she lied about not having any STDs. Maybe she lied about not having a violently jealous boyfriend, or not planning to stab you to death while you slept. There’s plenty of psychos out there in the world, but it’s usually both possible and advisable to avoid having sex with them.
But maybe someone else has a better suggestion for how to protect innocent men. If so, let’s hear it. What is the best, practical way to help men avoid being falsely accused of rape by women with whom they have had consensual sex?
I have heard this advice given pretty much word for word. I’m surprised you’ve never heard it said.
I remember a poster we put up in my group house after we had an incident between two residents*, is said: “Consent is Sexy”. It was supplied by some group that dealt with rape and molestation on campus.
*Not a rape, really, more of the guy persisting in asking for sexual contact long after he probably should have got the clue (though from both their descriptions of what happened the girl was pretty indirect in her refusals; no excuse, but a factor contributing to the situation). The guy ended up moving out as a result.
That doesn’t mean that they don’t suffer from it for the rest of their lives. That doesn’t mean that their reputation and livelihood isn’t destroyed.
That’s not only difficult, it’s impossible. Even if you record her, she can just claim she was under threat. She isn’t expected to prove he raped her; he’s expected to prove he didn’t.
And what does that have to do with anything ? You are again slamming men; insisting that it’s all THEIR fault, that they should be able to telepathically tell how trustworthy a woman is.
All ? No, nor did I say they did. But quite a few will, especially since there are no consequences.
Objectively speaking, yes, men are better off avoiding women. But men are irrationally attracted to women, to the point of self destructiveness, and a great many women take advantage of that any number of ways.
And I never said that all women were the sort to falsely accuse a man, or even most; that’s your strawman not mine. But men have no way to tell which will, and which won’t.
Because you come across as the sort of person who could do anything no matter how awful to a man and convince yourself it’s his fault; and because most women are attracted to men.
Because men can’t. Again; you keep insisting that men are supposed to telepathically determine a woman’s attitude before going to bed with her, and that won’t work.
But it’s one of the worst, and the one he has the least means to prevent.
Hold the women who lie responsible. And treat sex crimes as if evidence mattered, and not as if accusation was conviction.
Are you saying that all women who might falsely claim rape can be spotted prior to having sex with them?
I certainly have run into a few overtly nutty women and smartly chose to discontinue pursuing them. However, in my experience it is rare to spot all the various quirks of a person in a few hours to make a conclusion that they would falsely accuse you of rape. Heck, even knowing them awhile is no guarantee. I knew one woman (in college) for weeks before we started dating. Only after we started dating did I figure out that she was batshit crazy (and I consider myself a pretty good judge of character). Got to the point she stalked me (not kidding).
I’d wager women may falsely claim rape for a number of reasons as well. I seriously doubt they all come from one-night stands. Could be a vengeful woman getting back at a guy for cheating on her or dumping her. I do not know the stats on that but they would be interesting and I would be surprised if it was all one-night stands.
Law enforcement needs to be skeptical of self-serving, uncorroborated accusations. Which they are in most cases, except that many feminists seem to be trying to carve out an exception for rape.
I do agree that the best practice for men (and women) is to avoid jumping right into bed with someone they just met. However, in a discussion about false rape accusations, one needs to ask whether such advice has the purpose or effect of distracting the discussion from the objectionable conduct of some feminists and prosecutors.
I think Lamia and phouka, at least, have said they both agree with this (as do many others posting in this thread).
Since I want to remain less ignorant than others, please give support to your allegation.
Please provide an acceptable, irrefutable example of how a man could prove a woman had given consent.