Economics of distribution. I don’t recall why a rock is more popular in the inner city while powder is more popular in the suburbs, but the relative popularities exist and that is why laws targeting one form over the other have disparate impacts on the populations using them.
Nitpick: Either CNN hired Tom Savini to create not one but two very badly mutilated dead bodies just for ratings, or the reports of mutilated bodies were not a lie. For anyone who watched the footage of a camera walking around and zooming in on both corpses, I can tell you that they sure looked real to me. The chest cavity of one had been torn open to reveal internal organs. I happened to be home, watching t.v. when C.N.N. started airing the clips. To me, this is savage behavior of the highest and most inhumane level. YMMV, of course. Cite- scroll down to “Mutilated bodies were found at convention center. Says CNN.”.
This page also provides accounts of acts of violence documented by CDC officials and others.
/Nitpick
Cartooniverse
This was intended to be a part of the previous post. I am aware that the reports state that both of the mutilated bodies were already deceased when they were torn apart. My post was about tomndebb’s use of the term savages in quotes, as though that term were somehow trumped up by the black-hating racist media. I didn’t mean to imply that those two dead people were murdered, then mutilated.
And, I don’t give two shits what the skin color was of the people that mutilated those two people. They are savages.
I do not mean to say that white racism is so little so as to not exist. Not in the slightest.
What I am saying is that there are groups of people who have an interest in amplifying the nature of racism (and thereby misrepresenting it’s scope and reach) and thereby making it The Official Reason why something is as it is.
Perhaps the most absurd example is Cynthia McKinney’s behavior a couple weeks ago. Rather than accepting responsibility for her behavior, her boorish acts suddenly became (or at lest she tried) a referendum on racism in America. Who in their right mind buys that? But as mentioned, it is particulalry egegious when young blacks are taught that they are not responsible for their own actions because of some nebulous haze of racism. Time and again young blacks are defended with the race card when racism had nothing to do with their behavior. It’s done in the work place, and in the schools. (and apparently in Congress)
It’s particularly bad when young people are conditioned to believe they are screwed before they even begin their lives.
And so I don’t believe that racism doesn’t exist. I do strongly believe that we give it too much credit—too much credit to derail lives, too much credit as to it’s pervasiveness, too much credit in it’s ability to influence lives, too much credit to hurt. I think racism is overstated, and over reported, often by people who are sincere ans mistaken, and often by charlatans. It is often used as the “nuclear option”; ground cover for bad behavior.
We give the racist too much credit. And when we do, we take power from ourselves and lose personal responsibility.
It’a a petty practice practiced by petty people. And they no longer have the upper hand. They have been marginilized by millions of committed decent, people. They’ve been marginilized in law, in artistic expression like art, music and literature. They’ve been marginilized in popular culture. They’ve been marginilized in the company breakroom and in the school cafeteria.
So yea, I think the war is over. And I think the good guys won. But you make an excellent point about vigilance—because the war is over doesn’t mean we can be complacement. If any of the foot soldiers thought for one minute that “victory” is when every heart and mind was won over, they will die embittered. And so every racist needs to be confronted head on—whether that be a stern look or word, complaint to HR, or a law suit. In every way the racist needs to be marginilized, hounded and prosecuted. You can’t legislate beliefs, but you can sure hold people accountable for their behavior.
I was under the impression that Gen-Xers were early 20 somethings…I must have that wrong.
I am 44. When I was going to marry, my mother told me, “raindog, I wonder if you have the maturity for this. You like to fight, and if you think that the world will embrace you, you are mistaken. If you choose to answer every slight with your fists you will spend the rest of your life fighting. You need to be realistic about this, in a very practical way. But if you find balance, peace, and learn to know when it is your fight, you’ll do OK. If you love her, marry her”
It was sound advice. I have never let a racist get the best of me, mentally or otherwise. If I hear racists running their mouths I simply walk away. When I can’t I tell them that that is juvenile and ignorant and I don’t want to hear it. Embarrasment is so much more gratifying than fighting. (Maturity has a lot do with that I guess)
Racists never once kept me from being successful (including a job offer that was mysteriously rescinded after meeting my wife), it has never occupied more of my energy than was neccessary. I’ve never run from one, figuritively or otherwise, whether they be white or black.
I’ve taught my kids that, in my lifetime, I have encountered racism in many different forms, from very subtle slights to threats of violence. I’ve taught them that racism is found in equal measures from both whites and blacks, although the overwhelming amount of people in both races are good, decent, and well intentioned.
I’ve taught them that it is a measure of their strength and character that they not let a racist change who they wish to be. In any event, they may not allow racism to relieve them of their personal responsibility, nor may they allow themselves to be routed by it. Racism is an obstacle, nothing more.
I’ve also shared with them that many times I have been in a position to know the “inside facts” when racism was alleged in a work environment and it just wasn’t there; and I was in a position to know that for sure. I’ve also let them know there were times that racism was in play and the ‘victim’ was blissfully ignorant of it.
I’ve told them that popular culture sees racism in all kinds of places where it just isn’t, or in cases where it can’t be known. Sometimes the clerk is just an equal opportunity jerk. Sometimes the traffic stop is just that. Blacks have been told for years by carpetbaggers like Jesse Jackson that every slight is an indication of racism. I’ve told them that there is enough real evil in the world and they should be cautious about ascribing racist motives when they simply don’t know.
Sorry for implying that it began 150 years ago. :smack: I make this mental distinction that begins the “modern” struggle for freedom and civil rights with Emancipation, Abolition, the underground railroad, the founding of the NAACP etc.
It was silly to imply that it “began” there.
Do you have any idea why they were torn apart?
I’m asking because I don’t know - I can’t figure out any motive for anyone to rip apart a dead body. But I suspect you don’t know either, but for some reason are content with just a picture in your head of maniacs ripping apart dead bodies for no reason, and them deeming them savages with no further questions.
Anyway, the elements (there was a hurricane going on, you know) and disinterested human activity seem to be the most likely cause.
Do we know how long the bodies were left there? Do we know whether or not they had been in the water for sometime and became bloated? How hot was it? Do we know whether or not there were animals roaming about?
It seems to me, one would like to know the something about conditions of these bodies and the environment thereof, before we strip away the humanity of people, based on some video.
…but that’s me.
And I’m the only person in this thread who has done this, so I am somehow worthy of being singled out by you for this chastisement? I don’t think so. And in case you hadn’t noticed, the discussion hasn’t moved forward in 4 pages, and I hardly think you can lay that at my door.
Yet you have no problem with Lochdale saying:
Is this not an ad hominem argument that does not advance the discussion? What about this:
Me believing in and pointing out racism = retarding the growth and development of African Americans. Hmmm. That’s not bad faith arguing, eh? I hope that, if you are going to slap hands for being ad hominem and negative, you’ll do it a little more even-handedly.
[quoter-tomndeb]
actually hopes to persuade one’s opponents to change their positions (in which case, erroneously assigning them positions they have not expressed will only irritate them and make them less likely to listen to your arguments or change their positions),
[/quote]
I was responding to this from Lochdale:
His position is that black leaders use the race card for every issue and have no other topics with which they deal. Do you find this at all disingenuous? Even insulting, maybe?
It’s happened all over this thread, so why you’re singling ME out for this is incomprehensible to me. I hope you’re acting in your capacity as a member of the board and not a moderator.
And that’s me too. Witnesses inside the Convention Center had noted both dead bodies for more than 24 hours. Water, ferile animals, bloating and the like had nothing to do with this. At all. In any manner. Ok? These were two people who died inside of a large building, with a lot of other people around. Some of whom tore their bodies up rather badly. That is the condition in which their bodies were existing before, and after they were mutilated.
Read up, do some Googling, before you just decide I’m stripping away the humanity of people, ok? I didn’t do the stripping away. Human beings mutliated dead bodies. It’s kind of a fact, whether you wish to recognize it or not. I’m sorry that doesn’t sit well with you.
FYI- CNN has removed the video, so the link within the link doesn’t actually show the bodies any more.
Sorry, you’re the one with the bad link. I’m not goggling crap. If you believe this happened, then prove it. Post your cites and I’ll read 'em.
Sigh. No I don’t hold that view and I think you know it. My point is that racism is no longer the most significant inhibitor of black development in the United States. Put another way, while racism still exists (and will most likely continue to exist) it can no longer be used as a crutch to justify the victimhood mentality. That is, it is in black-America’s best interests to move beyond the rhetoric and focus on what’s best for the community. You haven’t listened to a single argument made by anyone on this thread and I would suggest that you are the one whose views of racsim are so ingrained that you have become utterly blind to an alternative point of view.
Isn’t it cheaper to produce crack cocaine than it is to ingest pure powder? According to Wikipedia , crack cocaine is cheaper.
I happen to know one guy who was a commodities trader who was a regular crack coacine user. He came from a good family and was quite well off. The drug just devastated him and even with the support system that he has he can still barely function. I can’t imagine what it must be like for the urban poor.
You were the one who explicitly said that there was no point in continuing the conversation because your opponents held particular views–and then expressed views that overstated one comment by one poster as though it was representative of everyone with whom you had argued.
That is the statement to which I reacted.
I have no idea what the “mutilated” bodies to which Cartooniverse referred looked like or what caused their mutilation, (although heat bloat plus feral dogs would seem to be as good a hypothesis as anything), but I will note that his claim is misleading in that I explicitly talked about the conditions inside the Superdome and the text and url associated with the now missing link talk about bodies found outside the convention center.
Cartooniverse, you are also deliberately distorting my statement when you attribute to me the idea that “black-hating racist media” was responsible for the images. My explicit point was that the media is not “black hating” but that when following the story they were only interested in sensationalism and that they ignored any responsibility to present facts when it was discovered that the sensational reports were exaggerated (and sometimes false) even though they had to have known that it was the images and words they broadcast that was fueling the hatred expressed in other fora.
the raindog, in all due respect, the racism you experienced from having a relationship with a black woman is different than the racism that a black person may experience themselves. Perhaps the area where you live is more progressive than some of the areas that I have been in, but institutionalized racism does exist in some areas. When I lived in Cincinnati, I used to hang out with a group of black men that I met at my college. I was only around them for a year and a half and, before then, I would have denied that racism was still a problem in this day and age. They were all gifted, talented and incredibly smart, so none of them allowed racism to get in the way of their dreams or taint their view of whites, but I can’t imagine the hurt they must’ve gone through when they weren’t allowed to check into a hotel, or pulled over ‘just because’ (never once happened when I was driving, but sometimes while my black friend was) or the looks they were given by store clerks who didn’t realize I was with them.
I’ve experienced racism myself, but it’s never been anywhere near the level that I’ve observed with some of my black friends, particularly the male ones.
I just cannot believe that you don’t see it. You know about the rate of imprisonment. 1 out of 3 adult black men are in the criminal justice system. Do you think that’s just a problem with black people and not the society they’re in? What about the lower standardized test scores? How do you explain these? I simply cannot put all the blame on them. I feel like you are.
Boy am I sick of this phrase, “victimhood mentality.” Racism is just a state of mind, and if they’d just stop letting it hurt them, they’d be fine? I can’t believe you really think that. I don’t deny that some people play the race card, but I don’t see how that leads to the statistically provable inequities that I’ve pointed out.
I have listened. I just don’t agree; why is it OK for you not to budge an inch in your views, but when do the same, I’m the one who’s not listening?
I’ve seen the effects of racism on my own students. My point of view on racism was pure ignorance at first; I grew up in a predominately white neighborhood, didn’t really know any black people until I went out into the big old world. Then, I believed as you did: people just need to get on with it, racism’s effects are over. But then I actually started having to deal with the problems my students face, and I was daunted, saddened, and determined to help. Thus, your accusations toward me are not only false, but hurtful.
I didn’t say it representative of everyone whom I had argued. I was referring specifically to Lochdale and I said as much.
I don’t know your experiences, and it certainly seems like you are on the level. I would also add that it seems that neither you or Askia are predisposed to being a victim, and more importantly haven’t let experiences change who you are.
Still, the problem with “institutional racism” is that by nature it so open to interpretation. The modern racist no longer walks up and says, “Hey, get over here nigger!”
So the reports of racism are poor service in restaurants, suspicion in department stores, discrimination in hiring & promotions etc etc.
I am not nuance challenged, and I don’t need it in black and white to see racism. (pun intended) But as I’ve said in this thread, I’ve been involved in employment issues as a mid level manager where I knew for sure that no racism took place. In some of those cases the person making the accusation was convinced that they were victims of racism. But I knew the situation intimately—long before the issue was raised—and was a party to the whole continuum.
Similarly, three months ago I was hired by a large (nationally known) competitor to put a new furnace/central air conditioning system in someone’s home. My customer—the people paying me—was the competitor. **Their **customer—the homeowner----was a nice African American family. At the end of the job, the family asked us to do some work that was not part of our agreement. Had they been my customer I would have engaged them and come to an agreement on scope, price etc. But they were not my customer, and it would have been unethical for me to contract directly with them. I told them that someone would get back to them. I forwarded the info to the competitor.
In those instances, it is typical for the competitor to contact the homeowner, work up a price and in most instances hire me once again to do the additional work. (since I was already acquainted with the work, customer etc)
Now the competitor (once again, nationally known) didn’t respond in a timely manner. (the local sales person is known for not being organized, prompt etc) I hadn’t heard anything in a couple weeks so I figured the homeowner didn’t want the additional work done. At any rate, that was between the competitor and the homeowner.
Three weeks later, I received a phone call from the competitor’s national headquarters. The homeowner had called them alleging that they received poor service/follow up from us, because…they were black. I told the person on the phone that we completed our work professionally and on time, and that the additional work request was forwarded. I offered to visit the homeowner, and they agreed. (keep in mind, the homeowner is not my customer) I visited the homeowner, and the lady wouldn’t open the door; speaking to me through the glass.
Did that lady play the race card insincerely to get better results? Maybe, but I met them and they seemed to be sincere, cool people. I’m left with the distinct impression that this lady believes to this day that she received poor service because she’s black. (and in my view she did receive poor follow up service, although race had nothing to do with it)
And so it goes. I was in a restaurant a couple years ago with 2 black friends.* (sisters)They are brilliant, extremely intelligent women.
The service was relatively poor—the type of service given by a server who doesn’t want to be there. At the end of the meal, one of them concluded that service was poor because they were black. (it was just the 3 of us) Now I experienced the same meal, service etc—and while I agreed the service sucked I was hard pressed to see one single thing that indicated racism—not a look, no comment, posture, she wasn’t even rude.
I was incredulous then and now–partly just how subjective this has become. And so I have become convinced that popular culture bears down on the African American community in a pervasive, pernicious way, constantly reminding them as Ellis Dee put it, “society’s hatred of [their] race.”
And so every poor waiter, every declined credit app, every termination, every house you didn’t see, every job you didn’t get, every traffic stop, every time you got a dirty look, every time you were followed in a department store, every time you are cut off in traffic, every promotion you didn’t get-----all of it------is evidence of “society’s hatred of the black American.”
I say that is a tragedy.
(These friends are so caught up with racism that they believe that the rates of illegitimate births between whites and blacks are the same and have always been the same. When I cited the disparity, they responded that this all part of “institutional racism”; that the government was intentionally under-reprorting white births, and intentionally over reporting black births. I pointed out that this would require a conspiricy of epic proportions—among thousands of people black and white, in many different organizations, and over decades of time. To this day they remain undeterred.)
Well, then, maybe you are engaging in some exaggeration on the issue of the entire Black Congressional Caucus or their entirely being single issue. I have had the opportunity to hear U.S. Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.) speak on several occasions and am on his mailing list (both for work-related reasons) and I have heard him speak on a wide range of issues, very few of them having to do directly with anti-black prejudice or racism. Indeed, racism is implicated in many of his concerns (such as voting discrepancies), but they are not exclusively race issues and I have not heard him characterise them that way. On his home page there are listed 17 major issues he is interested in, and only two of them (racial profiling and reparations) are exclusively race-oriented. Indeed, most of his positions have to do with being anti-Bush and anti-Republican, but I don’t think that is based in black victimhood; neither does it result in an exclusively race-based policy programme.
Okay, so you might say I’m being nitpicky in picking out just one member of the Black Congressional Caucus and highlighting the range of his interests and concerns. It’s okay to exaggerate a little in order to make a point, you might say. However, your conclusion about black leaders, black politicians, and concerns about racism seem to me premised on the idea that what you are saying is literally true, not just an exaggeration. When you get to the point that you are judging individuals and entire race coming from a positiong that exaggerated stereotypes are literally true, I think that’s a dangerous path.
Furthermore, it seems to me that if you really do believe that what you’re saying is literally true, then that itself is an incorrect perception that is aided by the way the mass media portrays things. In other words, you believe what you believe about blacks living their lives doing nothing and just blaming everything on racism as a result of institutionalised racism.
So we should obviate them from any form or personal responsibility? That is, should we simply blame “racism” and then just walk away? Should we be so patronizing so that we take away any choice a black person may have? It’s just not that simple. It’s a very complex issue and there is no silver bullet solution. It’s not that I don’t “see it” it’s that I don’t choose to have a myopic view point and I see the bigger issues.
I have no interest in hurting you but I do feel you’ve made this debate very emotional and that’s not a good thing. By suggesting that those people who don’t believe that racism is the sole or even the most significant cause of problems in the black community do not want to help is hurtful. Racism just can’t explain away all the problems and issues in the black community. We can’t just bury our head in the sand and say “If all white people would stop being racist or if they just vanished tomorrow” all would be well. That just isn’t the case. Moreover, I do think that the victimhood is being used a crutch to delay discussing some core problems in the community. Further, other ethnic and racial groups just aren’t going to be swayed by claims of “racism” at every turn.
I am going to say that you are being nit-picky. Whilst I do see your point it’s just as easy to point to a Jesse Jackson or an Al Sharpton and see that they planks are fairly limited. Does the media only portray them that way? Not really, I think the likes of Sharpton and even the Caucaus go out of their way to get media attention for racial issues, real or imagined.
The media rarely reports on the many press releases released by members of Congress no matter their colour as they tend to want to jump on the sensationalist releases.