Chemical allergy questions.

Factual Questions
1

So, Anagramless Guy (my bf, for those of you who don’t follow my SDMB life) claims to have an allergy to chemicals. Which chemicals? “Chemicals,” he tells me. Now, I’m no biochemist, so I have problems figuring out how one can be allergic to all chemicals, especially when he can use most spray cleaners/scented bath products/scented fabric softener/dish soap, etc. He seems to have problems with things like bleach, ammonia (not together, of course!) and Lysol, which makes me think that it’s probably dependent on the strength of the vapor of the chemicals in question.

His symptoms upon exposure to such chemicals is reddening and general grossening of the skin upon contact (enough to where he cannot swim in chlorinated swimming pools, although he had no problems in my parents’ brominated hot tub), and labored breathing when exposed to the fumes of them.

So, the question, after all this buildup is not specifically about the biomechanics of the allergy, but how he would react to an ammonium chloride-based cleaner. He recently got a job at Starbucks (direct complaints elsewhere, please), and the manager informed him that their cleaners were based on ammonium chloride. (He then informed AG that ammonium chloride doesn’t contain chlorine [yes, I realize that it is an issue of chloride ion versus chlorine atom, but in this case I don’t think that it matters.]) So, after all the background, would you expect someone with an allergy to bleach to be allergic to ammonium chloride? I tried to get AG to just undergo an informal “spray some on yourself” skin test, but he nixed that idea until I research whether or not he should be allergic to it.

2

Your BF doesn’t have an allergy to “chemicals,” as just about everything is a “chemical” (is he allergic to water? That’s a chemical.) He just has sensitive skin and lungs, it seems (maybe he has undiagnosed asthma?) They only way to be sure is to pretty much have him use it and see if he gets red skin and labored breathing. But I doubt they are ammonium chloride based, as ammonium chloride is a salt that, AFAIK, isn’t used for cleaning purposes. They are probably just ammonia based.

I recommend your BF get a hold of the bottle and read the label, it will say exactly what the active ingredient is. He can then tell you, and you can tell us (though, as i said, it just seems like he has sensitive skin, so perhaps he can wear gloves while cleaning?)

3

It matters completely. Ammonium chloride is a salt, therefore it is chloride. No different from sodium chloride. On the otherhand, the manager said the cleaner was ammonium chloride based. I wouldn’t expect ammonium chloride to do much by itself so certainly there are harsher chemicals like ammonia in the mix. The ammonium chloride simply buffers the pH.

4

[QUOTE=Christopher]
It matters completely. Ammonium chloride is a salt, therefore it is chloride. No different from sodium chloride. On the otherhand, the manager said the cleaner was ammonium chloride based. I wouldn’t expect ammonium chloride to do much by itself so certainly there are harsher chemicals like ammonia in the mix. The ammonium chloride simply buffers the pH.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll try to get him to read the bottle when he works tomorrow. OTOH, keep in mind that household bleach, to which he is sensitive, doesn’t contain elemental chlorine, either, rather the hypochlorite ion.

I have enough formal training in chemistry (just don’t ever ask me about pchem ::shudder::slight_smile: to know the difference between an atom and ion, but my point was that the manager’s statement that “ammonium chloride doesn’t contain chlorine” was most likely not based in the technical difference between the two.

5

On the question as to how he’d react to an ammonium chloride based cleaner, he really needs to know if he’s reacted to it before. Allergic reactions like it sounds that he suffers from can get worse with repeated exposure. The first few times he came into contact with things he’s now reacting to, he might not have noticed any effect. Each time, the reaction would get more extreme.

If he’s had issues with ammonia, I’d be more concerned with that (although ammonia =/= ammonium, just like chlorine =/= chloride).

I suffer from some chemical sensitivities (unfortunate, since I’m a chemical engineer). When our uniform cleaners switched detergents on us, it took me a few months to work up a full-blown reaction. First couple of times, I’d notice itchy redness, like insect bites where my sleeve cuffs fell. Some time later, my arms would swell up and ooze puss wherever my workshirt had touched skin not protected by my undershirt.

Really, I’d avoid the “self-test,” too – why take the chance of itchy misery? He can just treat the stuff as though he would be allergic to it, and wear personal protective equipment (i.e., gloves, maybe a mask if it’s airborne). I’ve survived 20 years working with chemicals that way (excepting the sneaky laundry); he should be fine.

6

The important thing is the oxidation state of the chlorine atom

Chloride = oxidation state -1
Chlorine gas = oxidation state 0
Hypochlorite = oxidation state +1

Hypochlorite and chlorine gas are decent oxidants because they will take electrons. Chloride is perfectly happy as its octet is filled.

7

[QUOTE=chaoticbear]
So, Anagramless Guy (my bf, for those of you who don’t follow my SDMB life) claims to have an allergy to chemicals. Which chemicals? “Chemicals,” he tells me. Now, I’m no biochemist, so I have problems figuring out how one can be allergic to all chemicals, especially when he can use most spray cleaners/scented bath products/scented fabric softener/dish soap, etc. He seems to have problems with things like bleach, ammonia (not together, of course!) and Lysol, which makes me think that it’s probably dependent on the strength of the vapor of the chemicals in question.

His symptoms upon exposure to such chemicals is reddening and general grossening of the skin upon contact (enough to where he cannot swim in chlorinated swimming pools, although he had no problems in my parents’ brominated hot tub), and labored breathing when exposed to the fumes of them.

So, the question, after all this buildup is not specifically about the biomechanics of the allergy, but how he would react to an ammonium chloride-based cleaner. He recently got a job at Starbucks (direct complaints elsewhere, please), and the manager informed him that their cleaners were based on ammonium chloride. (He then informed AG that ammonium chloride doesn’t contain chlorine [yes, I realize that it is an issue of chloride ion versus chlorine atom, but in this case I don’t think that it matters.]) So, after all the background, would you expect someone with an allergy to bleach to be allergic to ammonium chloride? I tried to get AG to just undergo an informal “spray some on yourself” skin test, but he nixed that idea until I research whether or not he should be allergic to it.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds like he might have something similar to what I have, vasomotor rhinitis combined with mild asthma. I’m technically not allergic to anything I’ve been tested for, but there are certain things (like perfumes and cleaning chemicals) that are triggers for histamine and asthmatic reactions for me. I don’t wheeze, my eyes don’t run, and I don’t break out in hives, but I have been known to have difficulty breathing, develop a sinus headache, and to vomit copiously with enough of the “bad” stimuli.

If he’s that concerned, he should probably go see an allergist about this issue, as I wouldn’t want to be tested via the “spray some on yourself” skin test either.

8

Huh. Unless it’s something like 10M KOH or something, I wouldn’t have a problem putting chemicals on myself to see what happened. I’m glad that he’s not a total freak for not wanting to do that. :stuck_out_tongue:

I did talk to him about reading the label on the cleaner to see what was in it, and hopefully, it won’t say something like “the specific chemical makeup of this product is withheld as a proprietary trade secret” or something.

9

A few years ago, a popular quack diagnosis was “Multiple Chemical Sensitivity,” or “MCS.” It was a great “disease” because it was caused by “modern chemicals” (i.e. anything) and the symptons were “wide ranging,” (i.e. anything.)

You still hear people claiming it’s real, but medical science has stopped even bothering to pooh-pooh it at this point.

But its spectre still remains in people who believe that “chemicals” are a term for something specific (usually man-made things), rather than practically everything. It does your friend no good to believe this. It sounds like he has a real illness, sensitivity, or allergy–and a potentially serious one at that. He would be well served to go to a real doctor (not a homeopathic, chiropractic, or naturopathic doctor), and have them diagnose what’s really wrong with him. It could save his life.

10

[QUOTE=Lightray]
On the question as to how he’d react to an ammonium chloride based cleaner, he really needs to know if he’s reacted to it before. Allergic reactions like it sounds that he suffers from can get worse with repeated exposure. The first few times he came into contact with things he’s now reacting to, he might not have noticed any effect. Each time, the reaction would get more extreme.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know, but right off the top of my head I can’t think of anybody I have met who was allergic to anything inorganic. I’ve met some people claiming they were allergic to metal, all metal. :dubious: I can understand if you get skin irritation from a zinc or nickel alloys. I would also hope that you get at least a major skin irritation from elemental alkali metals, otherwise I think I’d rather stay out of your way. An allergy, as in an improper Immunoglobulin E activation, to a simple chemical like ammonia? Is that possible? If you use “allergy” as a catchall term for any kind of negative reaction to any sort of chemical then I’m most definitely allergic to ricin, cyanide, concentrated hydrochloric acid and conductive metals with a significant potential difference compared to me. :smiley:

11

HERE IS THE MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) on ammonium chloride.

12

I got to the point where almost anything could trigger swelling and rash. Pressure on an area even caused swelling. I could feel a tingle in my lip and one minute later my lip was swollen. I couldn’t be in a room with any vaporized cleaners, scents, or irritants without my lungs swelling. Many times I couldn’t swollow a sip of water. I had asthma that was hard to treat for years before my whole body went nuts. I don’t wish to make this a hyjack about my problems. I just give this example of the immune response going nuts on almost everything I came in contact with. Once the immune system is sensitive to one thing that you contact often, it can become sensitive to much more stuff.

13

I heard one time that allergies are reactions to proteins, so sensitivity to bleach and other inorganic chemicals would not be an allergy. Can other dopers confirm?

14

[QUOTE=CurtC]
I heard one time that allergies are reactions to proteins, so sensitivity to bleach and other inorganic chemicals would not be an allergy. Can other dopers confirm?
[/QUOTE]

I’m not a doctor, but I do know a little bit about allergies. Mainly because I had a nasty situation where I went into anaphylaxis and I’m still not sure what I reacted to, neither is my allergist. After that I researched quite a bit on the subject.

In the strictest medical sense an allergy is a type of hypersensitivity that results in an improper activation of an immune antibody called Immunoglobulin E, which in turn activates certain immune system cells that cause inflammation and release of histamine. This can manifest itself as a rash or sneezing or it can manifest itself with you gurgling up blood and your airways swelling shut.

Now, the list of things that can cause this improper activation of IgE is long, but the way I understand it, it is an antibody and it has to bind to the allergen to cause any sort of a reaction. Now, for something to be able to bind to an antibody it needs to have certain specific chemical features (now looking it up it’s called an epitope) that are only present in organic macromolecules. Anybody with more specific knowledge correct me if I’m wrong, but inorganic substances do not cause type 1 hypersensitivities and do not activate IgE.

15

I believe the immune response for chemical or mechanical damage to a cell triggers the immune response in the same way.

The Immune Response To Trauma by Harris B. H. and Gelfand J. A.
The response to trauma begins in the immune system at the moment of injury. The loci are the wound, with activation of macrophages and production of proinflammatory mediators, and the microcirculation with activation of endothelial cells, blood elements, and a capillary leak. These processes are potentiated by ischemia and impaired oxygen delivery and by the presence of necrotic tissue, each exacerbating the inflammatory response.

17

Reported. And I’m sure its obvious this guy is multiposting