Cheney, Dick

I’m not aware of proof that Cheney did any such thing, but even if he did it would have no bearing on anything I said. It’s perfectly obvious that a synergistic relationship very likely either existed or could soon develop between Iraq and any number of terrorist organizations. Hussein had been roundly defeated in the Gulf War and his hopes of regional expansion dashed; he was subjected to no-fly zones and prohibited from taking whatever action he wanted against his own people within his own country; and from his own perspective he was experiencing great difficulty in developing various weapons of mass destruction. All in all, this presented a nearly intolerable state of affairs for a man as prideful and desirous of being feared throughout the region as Saddam Hussein was.

So to my mind it’s not only rational to have concerns that Iraqi WMD could very well end up in terrorist hands, it would have bordered on dereliction of duty not to have concerns about it. I’ve said it here before and I’ll say it again - had Bush not taken action against Saddam Hussein and a WMD had found its way into the U.S. and resulted in hundreds or thousands of American deaths, Bush’s opponents on the left here would be screaming bloody murder that he should have seen the likelihood of a synergistic relationship between the two and done something to prevent Iraq’s weapons from falling into terrorist hands.

The fact of the matter is that you simply don’t like Republicans and you don’t trust them to make the right decisions. So you think everything they do is wrong and you will condemn them, no matter which approach they take. And while that is certainly your right, it doesn’t make you right. I feel that the country is definitely safer as a result of both the Iraq war and the steps Bush took to safeguard us here at home, and based on the concerns I outlined above I think it’s perfectly rational to feel that way. You may not agree, but that only means you are of a different opinion, not that you are irrefutably correct.

May I remind you that, during the runup to the war, most of the world’s major intelligence services felt that Hussein had WMD or was working on their development. Bill and Hillary Clinton also made statement indicating they believed Hussein had WMD capability. And the reason for this is that Hussein was playing a cat-and-mouse game with UN inspectors and the rest of the world by doing everything he could to create the impression that he had WMD capability, this so as to improve his standing in the area and intimidate his would-be enemies. So you can hardly fault foreign intelligence services, the Clintons or Bush himself for believing that Hussein had or was developing WMD, and you can hardly fault Bush, in post 9/11 America, for doing everything he could to keep WMD out of the hands of our enemies, up to and including the war in Iraq. If anyone is to blame for the war in Iraq it is Saddam Hussein himself, and not George Bush.

He wouldn’t have had to get them to us. He could merely have put them in the hands of one or another of the numerous terrorist groups who have sworn to attack America and let them do heavy lifting. This would have served a dual purpose - he could attack America by proxy, and he would have plausible deniabilty as to his own involvement.

And there are many types of WMD, as I’m sure you know. They can be not only relatively small and portable nuclear weapons, but chemical and biological as well. And as such, they can be ‘delivered’ simply by being smuggled into the country and transported to their ultimate location - no intercontinental missles required.

You know, there are some whackjobs who still believe that Saddam spirited the WMD’s off to Syria on the eve on the invasion?
Once they jump to their conclusions, there is no way that they will ever ever change them. It’s really a shame that such behavior is allowed to dominate to the extent that hundreds of thousands of people are killed to alleviate the phantom fears of a few.

They advertise and sell patriotic nationalism because that’s what keeps them in business. It assures them that the American people keep voting for politicians who will keep military spending at a rate which is unknown in any other nation on earth.

I wonder if when a Starving Artist argument comes in contact with a rational argument, there isn’t a blinding flash and mutual annihilation.

This, of course, is totally untrue and has been debunked many times. It does not stop Cheney and his parrots from repeating it though.

Read the CIA report, and THEN get back to us. He did not have the capability.

You hate the Corleone’s, so does Barzini. Of course, Barzini hates you, too. So you’re gonna give Barzini an atom bomb, because you hope that he will use it against the Corleones? Well, he promised to, so you can trust him?

You do realize, don’t you, Starkers, that this makes no sense at all? “Trust” is not a word in the paranoid’s dictionary.

luci, luci, luci…you silly, naive young bo…uh, you silly, naive adult who should know better. I don’t think that Hussein ever intended to use WMD against us in a head-on confrontation. Maybe not even against us at all. He wanted power and to be feared in the region. He wanted to be the top dog, the leader that other countries in the region feared. The danger that Iraqi WMD posed to the U.S. lay in the possibility of their falling into the wrong hands, either deliberately through Hussein himself, or unknowingly through his subordinates acting out of their own hatred for the U.S. and in retaliation for their humiliating defeat in the Gulf War.

Post a link to one of these advirtisements, then, so we can see what you’re talking about?

Others can remember that I already posted the evidence that showed that other intelligence services came to the conclusion that the level of risk was exaggerated to ridiculous levels.

As the evidence showed later, Bush was wrong, and you are ignoring that evidence was already posted that shows the administration was tainting the evidence to get us to war.

Parroting again the discredited notion that Saddam and Osama were buddies.

Once again ignoring on purpose that the inspectors were not finding any WMD, logic says that your points are silly.

Why should they get them from Saddam? Pakistan has been holding a nuclear Amway sale for years, why go to the trouble? Why put up with the hassle of stealing them from a sworn enemy when you can buy them?

If Saddam knew of an AlQ plot to attack America, he would have ratted them out in a New York minute. One, he hated AlQ, and they hated him. Two, he would have been blamed no matter what. What advantage would be gained for him to have America on the warpath?

(Please allow someone else to post between, SA. Too much risk of a rip in the space/time/rationality continuum.)

Nothing from nothing leaves nothing, You gotta have something If you wanna WMD…

:slight_smile:

How cute, u found a typo. Your opinion still doesn’t matter, though.

"The attempted assassination of Sukarno has all the look of an ‘operation’ by the Central Intelligence Agency: everyone got killed except the appointed victim." :smiley:

~William F. Buckley, Jr., from his fictional spy novel, Mongoose R.I.P.

The CIA has long suffered from fallability.

Having said that, you appear to be of the opinion that if CIA thinks Iraq has WMD, they’re full of shit…but when they say Iraq doesn’t have WMD they can be believed blindly.

The CIA had been eviscerated by President Clinton and was a shadow of its former self. Hussein was playing cat-and-mouse with the U.N. inspectors and doing everything in his power to create the impression that he did have WMD and was, through a chess-like series of clever machinations, keeping them just out of reach of the U.N. inspectors.

Hussein was believed by to have WMD because of his own deliberate behavior, and given the fact that he had developed and used them in the past…combined with the obvious fact that he either was or would continue to try to develop them, the risk was simply too great to allow him to remain in power.

As I said, presidents make decisions on the preponderance of evidence. Bush was getting intel from a wide variety of sources, and I’m sure he was taking Hussein’s history into account as well. In my opinion he simply felt, as I do, that Hussein presented too great a risk to the country and its allies to be allowed to remain in power.

Just a tiny tiny sample from that report:

https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd_2004/index.html

Desert Storm and subsequent UN resolutions and inspections brought many of Iraq’s delivery system programs to a halt. While much of Iraq’s long-range missile inventory and production infrastructure was eliminated, Iraq until late 1991 kept some items hidden to assist future reconstitution of the force. This decision and Iraq’s intransigence during years of inspection left many UN questions unresolved.

* Coalition airstrikes effectively targeted much of Iraq’s delivery systems infrastructure, and UN inspections dramatically impeded further developments of long-range ballistic missiles.
* It appears to have taken time, but Iraq eventually realized that sanctions were not going to end quickly. This forced Iraq tosacrifice its long-range delivery force in an attempt to bring about a quick end to the sanctions. 


The Iraq Survey Group (ISG) has uncovered no evidence Iraq retained Scud-variant missiles, and debriefings of Iraqi officials in addition to some documentation suggest that Iraq did not retain such missiles after 1991.

And the Downing Street memo:


C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime’s record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation.

So, we were going to war no matter what. All we had to do was gin up the excuse.

So Starving, if as you say, the intel was bad, then what was the source of all the “damning evidence” against Iraq? We KNOW it wasn’t because he attacked us on 9/11. That excuse was so stupid nobody believes it. We know it wasn’t WMD, there weren’t any. So where was all this “information” coming from?

There is a retired Air Force Lt Colonel, namd Kwiatkowski (you should look her up) who has her own, highly unflattering opinion. Look her up. It’s a pretty scary story.

And when I want yours, I’ll give it to you.

Evidence that has been shown it was tainted beforehand by the same administration.

Choose your poison then, did the Bush administration lied by knowingly tainting the information on the way to war (and giving congress also misleading information), or did they lied when they knowingly used the tainted information to make the wrong decision?

The 911 timeline clearly indicates that several nations told the US that such an attack by domestic aircraft was very possible. The administration ignored them all. Now they lie to cover up. That is as expected.
If you remember, we wanted to use Turkeys’ land to launch from. They told us Hussein was a paper tiger and no threat to the area . They would not get involved. They refused to be part of the tapestry of lies that Bush was weaving.
Everything Powell said at his dog and pony show in front of the United Nations was lies. Cheney spearheaded the cover up at the CIA. Why would he admit it now? He is as low as an American politician can get.