Yes, by shipping them off to some third world nation where young kids tear the things apart and are exposed to all kinds of toxic hazards, just like they are when they rip apart the old PCs and other electronics everyone ships over there.
And there are disposal costs, they’re just built in the price of the car, for now.
So what happens to all of the Ni-MH batteries in all of the electronic toys, drills and screwdrivers now? Most people just throw them out and they just end up in landfills. But if Toyota gets them, they will be recycled.
As far as the third world sweatshop thing, I’m going to have to ask for a cite for that. For example, how do you know that Toyota won’t use U.S recyclers?
Disposal costs are built into everything. Can you show me that the Prius’ is higher than any other car in its price range?
Will Wiki do?
In general, it’s the Third World where everyone ships their garbage to, so even if the company you’ve hired to handle it is in the US, odds are, they’re shipping it overseas.
Not in the US, they’re not. The EU is now requiring electronics manufacturers to handle returned units for things like TVs, PCs, and the like. AFAIK, there’s no disposal costs built into anything like cars anywhere in the world, other than the Prius where Toyota buys back the batteries.
Does GM have a buyback plan for any of it’s non-hybrid vehicles? (Heck, does GM even buy back it’s batteries like Toyota does?) How about Honda? Sure, you can trade that car in at the dealer, but that doesn’t mean it’s going straight to the scrapyard. Odds are, it’ll be resold to someone else.
My vote is that Speedy Gonzales is the fastest.
Hey, at this point all three are fictional.
Tuckerfan, your Wiki cite says nothing about either Toyota or the Prius. Please give me a cite that indicates that Toyota intends to do this with Prius batteries.
As far as what GM or Honda intends to do with their batteries; I’ll let their owners research that one.
The Volt is not a plug-in hybrid.
In a true hybrid the wheels can be driven electrically or via combustion engine.
A plug-in hybrid is a hybrid that can supplement it’s electric capacity via the grid, extending it’s electrically driven range.
The Volt is always driven by electricity. The gasoline engine is used to charge the battery for extended driving range.
So it seems to me that Toyota is ahead of the curve, then, by building the disposal costs of its batteries into its car and still making it affordable to buy. What’s the downside?
If the Chevy Volt isn’t a plug-in hybrid, why does the website say, “Recharge Concept Chevy Volt every night with a common 110-volt household outlet. Then drive it up to 40 miles daily on a single electric charge” and also says, “It can be configured to run on electricity, gasoline, E85 or biodiesel.”
I’ve found a cite on what Toyota intends to do with its spent Prius batteries:
Interview with marketing manager for Toyota Prius
So Toyota is on record here as saying that they intend to use U.S. recyclers for their Prius batteries.
It’s a matter of definition. It’s not a “Hybrid” because it can’t run on the mechanical energy produced by the IC engine. It’s an plug-in electric vehicle with on-board gasoline generator battery recharging.
But, all that hardly matters. It’s still going to compete with the other electric / gas vehicles out there.
It’s not a matter of definition. They’re both hybrids. The Volt’s a series hybrid, simply enough.
It could be argued that the Prius isn’t a true hybrid while the Volt is, because the Volt can run on two different energy sources while the Prius gets all its energy from gasline.
I think Tesla is going after the wrong market. They should make an electric for gong to work and the market. A racing car will not have a big enough base to support them. They proved it is fast. Now stop it and give me a good electric commuter car.
But looking at the styling and size of the Chevrolet Volt concept car, it looks like it too is aimed at the performance car market, not the commuter market.
Except they need money. You can make a lot more money initially by offering an overpriced, niche item and bring in the capital that will later permit you to offer a mass market vehicle.
Back to the OP, neither one exists yet in an independently testable form, so comparing their performance to see which one is better isn’t possible.
Tesla at least has test mules that they’ve let some people play with, but their performance and range claims haven’t been verified yet. The Volt isn’t anything more than a non-physical concept at this point.
Having worked for various suppliers for Honda, Nissan, Ford, and Toyota (to name solely the automakers), I can tell you how this works. There’s several tiers of subcontractors. Going up the supply chain, the Third Tier suppiler is often (though not always) the company which processes the raw materials, the Second Tier will do some of the subassembly work, then ship it to the First Tier subcontactor, who’ll combine that subassembly with others and ship that to the manufacturer. The inspectors from manufacturer will routinely check the facility of the First Tier supplier, and, occassionally, check those of the Second Tier manufacturer, and only inspect the Third Tier when they’re first brought onboard, or there’s a problem which can be traced back to the Third Tier subcontractor (if there’s a Fourth Tier, they’ll only see inspectors from the manufacturer if the problem can be traced to them).
On the outbound side (when it comes to waste and not product shipped), they’ll generally go as far as the First Tier, and that’s it, as their legal responsibility ends there. When I was working with one of the environmental engineers at Nissan, she began describing (among other things) how Nissan would turn the damaged wooden pallets they got into mulch and use that for landscaping on the Nissan factory grounds in Smyrna, TN. My first question to her was, “Do you guys do soil sample tests?” When she replied that they didn’t, I proceeded to explain to her that it was a really bad idea because over the years I’d found that you never really know what’s been spilled on those pallets and that I’d seen any number of them which had been stamped “Single Use Only” and had obviously been used more than once. (These pallets tended to have originated with pesticide companies and wound up getting mixed in with others that the trucking companies used.)
Odds are, the returned battery packs go to a First Tier subcontractor, who tests and sorts through them. The ones that can easily and inexpensively be reprocessed are handled by the First Tier subcontractor, the rest are shipped to the Second Tier, who selects the ones they can handle, and then hands the rest off to a Third Tier subcontractor. It is here that they’re most likely shipped off to some Third World nation for processing.
Even if Toyota checks the Second and Third Tier recyclers to make sure the stuff’s not being sent overseas, that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Corporations are always getting surprised that one of their subcontractors is doing something different than what they were supposed to do. Often times, the subcontractor will be less than dilligent in selecting a subcontractor, and this subcontractor will do the illegal/unethical thing. Generally, this is only caught when some independant group makes a stink about what happens.
Oh, and forget about surprise inspections. Those only happen when there’s a consistent problem. Otherwise, the subcontractor knows well in advance that inspectors are coming. The only exceptions to any of this that I’ve found, are in the aviation industry. There, every one of the subcontractors can expect to have an inspector from the manufacturer on site (and depending upon the component, said inspectors might be there 24/7).
I can tell you that my current employer is a First Tier supplier for both Honda and Toyota. In the time I’ve been there (6 months), we’ve never had a Toyota inspector in the facility, while Honda’s there about every other month. Make of that what you will.
This isn’t a cite. It’s little better than a FOAF. I give up. Tuckerfan, I respect you as a poster, but I’m going to have to walk away from this one. You think I made a poor choice of a car purchase. I don’t think I did, but I’m just going to have to let time make the final judgment.
I’m through with this thread.
I don’t think he said that at all. His point was merely that you probably don’t want to get left holding the bag at 150,000 miles - and it was pointed out that you probably don’t want to do that with any car, really.
Bingo. And the US is rapidly becoming meaningless as far as car sales go. Presently, China’s experiencing double digit growth in new car sales (25% a year, IIRC), with China expected to have the same number of cars on the road as the US by 2015. Environmentally speaking, if your primary concern is air pollution, then hybrids aren’t a bad choice. However, if your concern is overall pollution, then your best choice is a diesel (ideally a used one, as it’s estimated that half the pollution generated by cars comes from their production, for some people, of course, used simply won’t work), not only because of disposal issues, but because many of the mining operations for the necessary raw materials are environmentally damaging to biblical proportions.
Right now, there’s probably less than 10 million hybrids that have been built, and I’m sure that 90+% of them are still on the road, thus the total environmental impact of hybrids is hard to predict. (I doubt if anyone has found it worthwhile to follow the disposal train all the way to the end of the line with hybrids right now.) The first hybrids went on sale in either 2000 or 2001, IIRC, that means the oldest ones are still younger than the average age of the cars on the road, and with it taking about 18 years for the national fleet to “turn over” it’ll be about 10 more years before the disposal concerns become a big issue. (Toyota may project the lifespan of hybrids at 250K miles, but so long as they’re able to move under their own power, they’ll be on the road, either here or in some developing country [which is where a lot of our older cars end up].)
The standard formula given for the life of a particular model is that 10 years after it goes into production, 50% of those produced are still on the road, with the number decreasing by 50% a year after that. There are, however, a number of exceptions to that rule, with certain makes staying on the road in higher numbers. Those cars tend to be ones with large number of followers (Mustangs, 55-57 Chevys being examples of ones that most people would be familiar with, though there are dozens of others.). I think that it’s safe to say hybrids have large numbers of fans, and thus we can expect more than 50% of the fleet produced in 2000 or 2001 to still be on the road by 2010/2011, this is a good thing, IMHO.