Chi energy believers: A question

[XT]

I was watching a show on National Geographic this evening where they were discussing Chi energy (or Prana or whatever you want to call it) in various forms. They showed a martial arts expert who can supposedly knock out (or knock down, or move) someone with out touching them…using Chi energy. They showed some Hindu ‘God Men’ in India using Prana to work various ‘miricles’. They showed a sect of Islam (I’m sorry, I don’t remember which sect atm…it wasn’t Shi’ite or Sunni) in Iraq who uses mystical energy from Allah that enables them to inflict wounds on themselves without pain and that would heal rapidly. They showed Yogi Fliers who use mystical energy to allow themselves to fly (or bounce as it were).

The show went out of its way to allow the various believers a chance to show what they could do. A lot of the footage, on the surface, was quite believable on first glance. The wounds inflicted especially were quite shocking (ice picks through tonges and cheeks, knives sticking out of skulls, swords through the chest, etc), and the martial artists knocking people down or out were interesting.

The end of the show however had…the skeptics. Interstingly enough, the skeptics were able to systematically knock down every claim. The martial artist was unable to knock out a 125 lb chemist from Italy. A Las Vegas showman was able to recreate every one of the piercings done by the mullahs in Iraq without any kind of spiritual energy…he’s an athiest. A roving skeptic was able to take down the ‘God Men’ in India (though they became so ticked off that they assaulted the producer from National Geographic…that was pretty shocking too from supposed ‘holy men’).

No one bothered with the Yogi Fliers…none of them were actually able to fly, they just kind of bounced along the ground in the yogi position (or whatever its called…crossed legs). That was pretty funny to watch and worth the hour spent if nothing else.

Anyway, what I want to know from true believers is…why does this mystical Chi energy (or whatever you wish to call it) seem to work only if one believes? Why as soon as the skeptics come along does it all of a sudden stop working? Why can folks who have no spiritual claims at all recreate feats supposedly only available to the spiritualists? How does one maintain the faith in the face of seeminly overwhelming evidence from science that can explain away these things? Admittedly I’m a skeptic so I’m predisposed to, well, being skeptical. I need proof. When I watch these kinds of shows I do so with a skeptics eye towards my own bullshit meter. When I see other skeptics given a chance on one of these kind of shows (not something that always happens unfortunately), its pretty clear that there is no effect…except that of the human mind.

So, the debate is: How do you keep the faith in the face of evidence to the contrary? What explainations (rational hopefully) can you give for why these effects never seem to work on the skeptics? Why continue belief in some mystical energy source when simplier explainations exist?

I realize there aren’t many believers on this board but I hope to get a few responses here…and I really am curious.

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

See this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=167264

[XT]

Ah, thanks BG. I was hoping some ‘true believers’ would come along and not so much explain why they think it works but how they can keep up belief in the face of scientific debunking…and also comments on why this kind of thing seems to only work if one is a believer (i.e. why it doesn’t work when one is a skeptic). THanks for the link though…I missed that one in GQ and the responses are certainly interesting.

-XT

[Blake]

Well I’m not a believer, but I study with and under people who are, so I’ll give this a shot.
The first thing you need to accept is that there are a lot of frauds in this world. The next thing you need to accept is that frauds usually latch onto something with a high ‘truth’ value to give their fraud credibility. In the West most fraud is perpetrated in the form of psuedoscience: gizmos that give your car 500mpg, the time cube, water intensifiers etc. None of that means that science itself and the principles of science are untrue. It just means that it’s easier to defraud people if you attach your fraudulent activity to something that is accepted as being true.

Now what exactly chi is has never been well defined. But then few things in this world have ever been well defined outside the field of western science, which exists largely as a way of specifically defining things. At it’s most basic chi is simply the ‘energy’ flow within the human body. And energy in this context is not the current western scientific definition but rather the older definition of “something that can effect change”. There’s no doubt that things flow within the body that can effect change. Everyone agrees with that, so to that extent everyone agrees with chi.

The more conservative forms view Chi simply as a way of describing the state of the body. There is a “natural” or desirable state that can assist in health and happiness and can even increase strength and allow short term ‘superhuman’ feats. These forms tend to be approximately a form of “healthy body, healthy mind” with various breathing exercises, meditations etc to allow the manipulation of Chi. This is the version of Chi that the people I know subscribe to. Whether it works is left up to the individual to decide, but I do know that these people can pierce their skin with ice picks without bleeding, for example. I’ve seen these people, some of them are good friends, suspend tiles etc form string suspended form those ice picks and have them broken. And I’ve seen the area before, and afterwards and I’ve seen the wounds heal over the course of weeks. This is not a trick of any form, it’s simply achieved by controlling blood flow. Doubtless it could be duplicated by a stage magician, but then so could flight.

That sort of strangeness along with accupuncture/accupressure, meditative bradycardia and so forth are the ‘normal’ observable manifestations of Chi for these people. None of that is too bizarre and it all seems to be fairly well supported by the science.

Where things get whacky is when you start defining it further. Some forms of chi seem more akin to Tao in the sense that they permeate everything, like the Star Wars Force. This form is what gives rise to the ability to levitate, knock people over form the next room and so on. And to stab youself with a sword I assume. This is where it starts to diverge radically form any sort of evidence of scientific testability. Whether these people are frauds I can’t say, but if it quacks like a duck…

However the more mundane expressions like piercing the skin or accupuncture or chi-gung may be able to duplicated by magicians, but that doesn;t mean they aren’t true. And those sorts of things can also be reproduced more-or less on demand no matter how many skeptics are present.

I guess the question is: Do you conclude that science is non-existent because so many fraudulent claims perportedly based on physics can’t be replicated when skeptics are available? If not then why conclude that Chi is ‘wrong’ based on the same standard?
I’m sure a giood stage magician could make a model plane, with no engine, fly around the room. Why can someone with no scientific training at all duplicate the feats of aeronautics engineers? Maybe it’s because it’s possible to duplicate things that actually exist. In fact one might argue that it’s impossible to duplicate things that have never existed.

The martial artist was unable to knock out a 125 lb chemist from Italy.

What does that mean? Pretty much anyone could knock out another human being given a few hours of training. So why would someone with (presumably) years of training be unable to manage the same trick? Knocking someone out has nothing to do with chi, it’s basic physics and physiology.

[XT]

@Blake

I guess the question is: Do you conclude that science is non-existent because so many fraudulent claims perportedly based on physics can’t be replicated when skeptics are available? If not then why conclude that Chi is ‘wrong’ based on the same standard?

Well, this gets into definitions as you said earlier. What exactly are we calling ‘chi’? Afaik none of the paranormal claims about ‘chi’ have ever been verified…so my answer would be that while there are certainly SOME scientific frauds perpetrated in the past there is enough real science in any given field (cross checked and peer reviewed) that I can have some expectation that science (in a given field) is valid. I have no such expectation in ‘chi’ as for one thing we can’t even really agree on a definition of what we are talking about…making testing difficult. In addition, afaik NONE of the more outrageous paranormal feats are verifiable…none. So…its difficult for me to equate the two.

@Blake

What does that mean? Pretty much anyone could knock out another human being given a few hours of training. So why would someone with (presumably) years of training be unable to manage the same trick? Knocking someone out has nothing to do with chi, it’s basic physics and physiology.

Sorry, let me explain this further. What the martial artist was doing was knocking people down, moving them and knocking them out without touching them. He was basically throwing ‘balls of chi’ at them, that supposedly disrupted their chi (or something like that) causing them to fall over unconsious (or just get knocked for a loop). He was doing this repeatedly as a demonstration to other martial artists. Then they had the skeptic come up and he attempted to knock him down from behind a sheet…nothing happened. He then tried the ‘chi ball’ thing (which basically looked like waving his hands around the guys head)…nothing happened. His explaination: The way the skeptic was holding his tongue (no shit). He said if you hold your tongue a certain way (or raise one toe, then another) you can’t be knocked out with this.

-XT

[Eonwe]

@Blake

The next thing you need to accept is that frauds usually latch onto something with a high ‘truth’ value to give their fraud credibility.

So… if enough people fake it, then it must be based on truth? Sorry, but I don’t think that’s really a defensible position. If enough people lie about being able to do something, then there must be people who actually can do it? Nope.

At it’s most basic chi is simply the ‘energy’ flow within the human body. And energy in this context is not the current western scientific definition but rather the older definition of “something that can effect change”. There’s no doubt that things flow within the body that can effect change. Everyone agrees with that, so to that extent everyone agrees with chi.

‘energy’ is not energy, so let’s not use that word, for clarity’s sake. Let’s call it ‘stuff’. So, there’s ‘stuff’ that flows within the body that effects change somehow? I certainly don’t agree with that statement, so I don’t agree with chi (and I’m sure I’m not alone in this). What do you mean ‘effects change’? What kind of change?

[smiling_bandit]

by Eonwe
So… if enough people fake it, then it must be based on truth? Sorry, but I don’t think that’s really a defensible position. If enough people lie about being able to do something, then there must be people who actually can do it? Nope.

Eonwe, re-read Blake’s comments. He didn’t say it was true; he basically said that con artists pull out something people don’t understand but seems possible.

‘energy’ is not energy, so let’s not use that word, for clarity’s sake. Let’s call it ‘stuff’. So, there’s ‘stuff’ that flows within the body that effects change somehow? I certainly don’t agree with that statement, so I don’t agree with chi (and I’m sure I’m not alone in this). What do you mean ‘effects change’? What kind of change?

Any change you can do, that’s Chi. That’s it. That’s all the word means, properly speaking. Chi describes something which is, but not neccessarily something mystical. It may not fall into a neat category, however.

Blake merely said that those who study Chi properly (i.e., without resorting to mysticism) were able to control their bodies moreso than the average person. This is theoretically possible. With the right state of mind, one might well be able to alter one’s bodily function in small ways. It is often visualized as a flow of energy.

[BrainGlutton]

@Eonwe

So, there’s ‘stuff’ that flows within the body that effects change somehow?

Certainly. Several kinds of “stuff”:

1. Neural impulses – chains of electrochemical stimulus transmitting information from the brain to the extremities and back (or, in the case of reflexes, bypassing the brain and only notifying it after the fact).

2. Blood, bearing dissolved food and oxygen (“energy”) to the muscles and organs, and taking waste products away; also bearing hormones, which can affect emotions, growth, and general health.

3. Lymph, traveling along its own independent circulatory system, which plays a role in your immune system, and transports fats from the small intestine to the blood.

But believers in “chi” – martial artists, acupuncturists, in some cases even chiropractors* – seem to confuse and conflate all these things into a single “life energy,” which might in turn be identified or associated with the body’s electromagnetic field (the “aura” that shows up in “Kirlian photography”).

*The theory of chiropractic is that spinal and other adjustments can clear blockages in the nerve trunks, thus facilitating the flow of “energy” to the extremities.

[WhyNot]

What I was taught when studying Traditional Chinese Medicine is that everything is Qi. Qi is energymatter. (“Qi” being the more PC spelling, for historical reasons I never fully understood.) There are more solid (yin) forms of qi, like skin and bones and computer screens. There are more ephemeral (yang) forms of qi, like electricity and consciousness and the nerve impulses that let me walk. No qi is absolutely solid (there are always spaces of nothing, there is no absolute something) or absolutely ephemeral (there is always something, there is no absolute nothing).

It always seemed to me to be echoing the western idea that matter and energy are linked. One can be turned into the other, but nothing is ever truly destroyed.

So, in a medical context, when we’re talking about qi, we’re talking about everything within the body, consumed by the body and excreted by the body. This includes blood, lymph, sinew, organs, consciousness, spirit and whatever it is that makes us move and effect change in the world. Each one described by how yin or yang the qi is, and how quickly the qi is changing state. There are hundreds of sums of qi, but qi is everything.

The spot on the roof of the mouth that the man was touching with his tongue is a legitimate acupucture spot which connects two channels and forms a powerful (in tai chi and qi gong) base which is extremely hard to affect. It’s the same spot that can be stimulated to revive an unconscious patient.

I don’t think you have to “believe” in qi to make it work for you. Obviously, since skeptics are alive and breathing, their qi is working just fine. Skeptics themselves are manifesting and controlling a massive amount of yin qi (solid, unyeilding) even if they are not aware of it, which can be hard to overcome, even for a skilled person. There’s nothing religious in it, however. Excepting that religious icons and training can help people visualize and learn to control qi more effectively. But some people are naturals. Those who are cut out to be the most vocal skeptics are often the unwitting naturals; they’ll never find anything amazing because it comes to them so naturally.

[AskNott]

Maybe it helps to wear Chi Sox.

[Eonwe]

@smiling bandit

Eonwe, re-read Blake’s comments. He didn’t say it was true; he basically said that con artists pull out something people don’t understand but seems possible.

Could be I’m misreading. I read:

It just means that it’s easier to defraud people if you attach your fraudulent activity to something that is accepted as being true.

as implying that most people believe… what exactly, I don’t know. In chi, or in the abilities some purport being in control of it gives a person. It just seemed like the point of these sentences was that because some claim incredible things, then the less-incredible things must be true. Sort of like, “stereotypes exist because there is a grain of truth to them.” Maybe for some, but a stereotype does not itself prove the underlying ‘truth’ of itself, as those who may be fraud chi ‘practitioners’ don’t prove that others aren’t frauds.

@smiling bandit

Any change you can do, that’s Chi. That’s it. That’s all the word means, properly speaking. Chi describes something which is, but not neccessarily something mystical. It may not fall into a neat category, however.

Blake merely said that those who study Chi properly (i.e., without resorting to mysticism) were able to control their bodies moreso than the average person. This is theoretically possible. With the right state of mind, one might well be able to alter one’s bodily function in small ways. It is often visualized as a flow of energy.

@BrainGlutton

Certainly. Several kinds of “stuff”:

1. Neural impulses – chains of electrochemical stimulus transmitting information from the brain to the extremities and back (or, in the case of reflexes, bypassing the brain and only notifying it after the fact).

2. Blood, bearing dissolved food and oxygen (“energy”) to the muscles and organs, and taking waste products away; also bearing hormones, which can affect emotions, growth, and general health.

3. Lymph, traveling along its own independent circulatory system, which plays a role in your immune system, and transports fats from the small intestine to the blood.

But believers in “chi” – martial artists, acupuncturists, in some cases even chiropractors* – seem to confuse and conflate all these things into a single “life energy,” which might in turn be identified or associated with the body’s electromagnetic field (the “aura” that shows up in “Kirlian photography”).

*The theory of chiropractic is that spinal and other adjustments can clear blockages in the nerve trunks, thus facilitating the flow of “energy” to the extremities.

Right. I’m aware that our bodies function, and that different things are related to each other. I’m just questioning whether a kind of meta-catch-all for, “you know, everything” is really meaningful. Let’s say I’m able to manipulate my heart rate. Am I using chi? Am I manipulating chi? If accupuncture works, it is because of quantifiable, measurable causes and effects on specific workings in the body, not because of chi. Outside of the mystical, I don’t see the benefit/function of the word or concept.

[smiling_bandit]

If accupuncture works, it is because of quantifiable, measurable causes and effects on specific workings in the body, not because of chi.

With all due respect, Eonwe, who cares if you think it’s a useful concept or not? It is their concept and they can darn well use it if they want to. I happen to think there are a lot of stupid concepts and could take your language apart bit by bit to make it better in my eyes. But it’s not important what I like. Chi means what it means.

[BrainGlutton]

@WhyNot

What I was taught when studying Traditional Chinese Medicine is that everything is Qi. Qi is energymatter. (“Qi” being the more PC spelling, for historical reasons I never fully understood.) There are more solid (yin) forms of qi, like skin and bones and computer screens. There are more ephemeral (yang) forms of qi, like electricity and consciousness and the nerve impulses that let me walk.

Would air or other gaseous matter be yin or yang?

@WhyNot

The spot on the roof of the mouth that the man was touching with his tongue is a legitimate acupucture spot which connects two channels and forms a powerful (in tai chi and qi gong) base which is extremely hard to affect. It’s the same spot that can be stimulated to revive an unconscious patient.

Two “channels” of what? Are these nerve paths?

[BrainGlutton]

@smiling bandit

Chi means what it means.

But what does it mean? If the term encompasses all matter and energy, it’s really not very useful as a concept (we might as well just say “mass-energy,” a term more familiar to educated Westerners). If it means something more specific and “spiritual,” then no one has yet proven it even exists. And if you can flip back and forth between those two poles at will, how is any meaningful discussion of it possible?

[WhyNot]

@BrainGlutton

Would air or other gaseous matter be yin or yang?

Technically, nothing is yin or yang all by itself - it is only more yin or more yang than something else. Air is yin compared to light. Air is yang compared to water. Given the general shorthand by which we use the term, however, air is yang, because it is more insubstantial than most things.

“solid” and “insubstantial” are just two of the qualities of yin and yang, by the way. They’re just the two that have come up so far. Yin things are also wetter, colder, darker, quieter, slower and lower than yang things. Yin is often given the attribute of “female”, but that one is particularly misleading and depends a great deal on what you’re comparing it to. A teenaged girl (fast, active, loud) is much more yang than an elderly man, for all his maleness.

Two “channels” of what? Are these nerve paths?

Two channels within which certain types of qi move. The types of qi are those produced by or contained by various organ systems or body processes. Some of them are located in the same area of the body as nerve paths, but they are not the nerve paths themselves.

But what does it mean? If the term encompasses all matter and energy, it’s really not very useful as a concept (we might as well just say “mass-energy,” a term more familiar to educated Westerners). If it means something more specific and “spiritual,” then no one has yet proven it even exists. And if you can flip back and forth between those two poles at will, how is any meaningful discussion of it possible?

I’ve explained what it means within the system where it’s useful. Given training in the system and a vocabulary to share, we can talk about it all day. Millions of Chinese find plenty to say about it. If you want to call it “mass-energy” go ahead. It’s just as good a translation as any, and no worse than most.

[Eonwe]

@smiling bandit

With all due respect, Eonwe, who cares if you think it’s a useful concept or not? It is their concept and they can darn well use it if they want to. I happen to think there are a lot of stupid concepts and could take your language apart bit by bit to make it better in my eyes. But it’s not important what I like. Chi means what it means.

Well, that’s certainly true, but in the spirit of Great Debates, I’d really like to know more of what Chi is, which I don’t think has been explained satisfactoraly.

Chi means what it means? Which is what, exactly?

Is Chi another word for “the sum total of all circulatory functions in the body?”

Is Chi a concept or a practice, or is it an actual thing.

I just feel like this conversation is all like, “chi, you know. It’s that change thing that flows through you. It lets you not bleed. It’s bodily fluids like lymph and blood. It enables you to exhibit extrodinary physical prowess/control.” And I’m just not willing to take for granted that it’s anything particularly special. Particularly when I’m still not clear on what it is.

[Eonwe]

@smiling bandit

With all due respect, Eonwe, who cares if you think it’s a useful concept or not? It is their concept and they can darn well use it if they want to. I happen to think there are a lot of stupid concepts and could take your language apart bit by bit to make it better in my eyes. But it’s not important what I like. Chi means what it means.

Well, that’s certainly true, but in the spirit of Great Debates, I’d really like to know more of what Chi is, which I don’t think has been explained satisfactoraly.

Chi means what it means? Which is what, exactly?

Is Chi another word for “the sum total of all circulatory functions in the body?”

Is Chi a concept or a practice, or is it an actual thing.

I just feel like this conversation is all like, “chi, you know. It’s that change thing that flows through you. It lets you not bleed. It’s bodily fluids like lymph and blood. It enables you to exhibit extrodinary physical prowess/control.” And I’m just not willing to take for granted that it’s anything particularly special. Particularly when I’m still not clear on what it is.

[pravnik]

@BrainGlutton

And if you can flip back and forth between those two poles at will, how is any meaningful discussion of it possible?

“The way that can be spoken of is not the true way; the name that can be named is not the true name.”

• Tao Te Ching

[pravnik]

@Eonwe

Well, that’s certainly true, but in the spirit of Great Debates, I’d really like to know more of what Chi is, which I don’t think has been explained satisfactoraly.

Chi means what it means? Which is what, exactly?

Is Chi another word for “the sum total of all circulatory functions in the body?”

Is Chi a concept or a practice, or is it an actual thing.

I just feel like this conversation is all like, “chi, you know. It’s that change thing that flows through you. It lets you not bleed. It’s bodily fluids like lymph and blood. It enables you to exhibit extrodinary physical prowess/control.” And I’m just not willing to take for granted that it’s anything particularly special. Particularly when I’m still not clear on what it is.

My extremely pedestrian may-be-missing-the-whole-point take on it is, it’s like your mind. Now, I’m dead certain I have a mind because I can directly observe it. But what is it? Where does it reside? Can I show it to you? Not really. Millions of chemical processes occur simultaneously in my body creating an incredibly complex system of stimulus and response which cause me to view myself not only as a separate and distinct organism, but as a consciousness both apart and not apart from my physical reality, which I think of as a “mind,” although in reality, a mind is an abstraction, a simple and intuitive way of observing a complex process.

When you get down to it, though, what am I in the first place? My cells are powered by mitochondria that I call a “cell structure,” but they originally evolved as symbiotes to the cells they inhabit, separate organisms. In a sense, my whole identity as a single, unified being is an abstraction. I’m like a coral reef or a nation state.

So the point with the Tao, or Chan, or Zen, is that you have the same intuitiuve, abstract grasp of the world around you as you do of your mind or your self, and the better you can make sense of that grasp, the better off you can make your mind, self and world. In that sense, it really is nothing special, eat when you’re hungry, sleep when you’re tired, and so on. As far as the use of “chi energy,” I think of it as looking for more abstractions, an intuitive grasp of interconnections where you wouldn’t see them ordinarily. An aikidoka (practioner of the martial art of aikido), as far as I know, is not harnessing any special mystical energy, but he’s envisioning an “energy” that simplifies some extremely complex forces of gravity, physiology, and motion that allows him to throw you all over the place with seemingly minimal effort on his part. The aikidoka’s “ki” is an intuitive and useful abstraction; it doesn’t exist in the same way that electricity exists, but in a certain sense it’s as real as your concept of your mind.

[BrainGlutton]

@pravnik

An aikidoka (practioner of the martial art of aikido), as far as I know, is not harnessing any special mystical energy, but he’s envisioning an “energy” that simplifies some extremely complex forces of gravity, physiology, and motion that allows him to throw you all over the place with seemingly minimal effort on his part. The aikidoka’s “ki” is an intuitive and useful abstraction; it doesn’t exist in the same way that electricity exists, but in a certain sense it’s as real as your concept of your mind.

OK, but then, how does acupuncture work? Or does it?