Ino:
Thank you. I am sincerely touched and humbled to the bottom of my heart by your post.
I am so glad that it worked for you.
Your first marathon deserves its own thread you know! WHy don’t you start one and tell the story of your training and running the race?
Well, first, as you would have recalled had I kept posting over the past few years and not taken a hiatus, my name is lno, not Ino. Stupid sans-serif font! 
I’d been using my livejournal to keep track of my training, as I’d drifted away from the Dope a while back. You’re right, though; this does deserve a thread of its own. I’ll work up the OP and post it, probably sometime tomorrow night.
To some degree, in my opinion, a whole bunch of a lot, this problem is the result of a competitive culture.
We channel children’s chaotic enthusiasms into athletic competition. (Nobody wins at “Tag”, nobody keeps score…) But most of us are not natural athletes, and excellence at athletics has an inheritied component, one cannot simply will it to be so. Which means that a few of us will enjoy the experience of athletics, but most of us will not, a few of us will enter early adulthood with positive associations with physicality and motion, but for most of us, that will only be expressed in dancing the Funky Chicken.
Then, of course, we turn to excercise out of vanity or fear, you see them out running with a grim face of apprehension, thier first heart attack is twenty paces behind, and gaining. Or if they could just torment themselves a bit longer, they would have the six-pack abs which are a sure ticket to Nookie City. It isn’t for fun, its pragmatic and goal-oriented.
To solve this problem, I propose a bloated beauracracy armed with meddlesome and interfering legislation. Think of it as the Coach State, like the Nanny State, but with a sweatshirt, a clipboard, and a whistle.
You will do the laps.
Push yourself too hard, and you might die. Marathoner or not. If you ignore signs of adverse conditions, you’re fucking stupid.
My Uncle had an MI while he was out for a jog. He ran all the time, was the picture of health, and had his ticker quit on him one day. Sometimes, you have no choice in the matter.
Scylla’s list,
quoted here:
Seems to lie a lot to me. Even drug companies can list the side effects of the drugs they sell, regardless of whether or not the symptoms conflict with each other. A drug might have a side-affect of constipation, as well as diarrhea. Yet, Scylla’s list seems to imply that there are only positive outcomes from running.
I question his level of objectivity if he can’t be counted on to bring at least one example of dissimilar thinking into the discussion. I await the dance.
Since this is the pit (and since you won’t give it up gracefully) it is my great pleasure to simply comment that you are retarded.
You are unable to distinguish between an argument around the general benefits for certain people with moderate running and whether or not running past that level provides additional health benefit. You continue to harp as if the debate were around the benefits of any running at all.
You are unable to understand that groups which run reflect only the residual self-selected cohort and that therefore their group health statistics do not reflect a net effect of running on health. While extreme running may be beneficial for some, for others it could be damaging or even lethal; certainly for a large part of the population it would simply trash their joints or strain their cardiovascular systems to a dangerous point. This is not a function of proper training regimens; it is a function of their genetic predisposition. Running is not some kind of magic salve that can be applied to that population to cure their sorry health ills.
I have tried to explain for you in simple terms what the issues are and you are unable to comprehend them. I will leave the invitation open to have you report back in 30 years.
In the interim, I’ll take it upon my self to stop engaging in a battle of wits with the unarmed.
dnooman
Actually, a list of the “health benefits” of running that included the drawbacks would be the “lie.”
I’m surprised and a little disapponted in you that you would look for drawbacks in the benefits list. Do you also think your car is stolen when you can’t find it in the refrigerator?
Hmm, they didn’t ‘shut down’ the marathon, some people went home early, but many, many more finished it just fine. My boss was one of them, so I know they didn’t ‘shut it down’ because I saw her pictures and pictures of her completing it with like 3000 other people.
Ooooh, 3 dozen. The Chicago FD has nearly 5 dozen ambulances by itself. They reallocated ambulances that weren’t being used at the time, nobody’s strawman grandfather was dying of a heart attack for lack of ambulances.
How 'bout you apologize for stealing my dig. Chicago has a good 5 or 6 million people on the great Roseville Metropolitan Area and corresponding ambulances to go with it. Probably more, people around here eat a lot of sausage and wash it down with Old Style.
Well, I’ve thought about this. I’m cutting her some serious slack, here.
If I were the kind of person who reacted to misunderstandings, different opinions, and irritations at the level of intensity that catsix does, I’d be pretty worried about the availability and responsiveness of emergency medical care, too.
I’d likely also carry a defibrillator on my back with laminated instructions for random passersby who find me blue-tinged on the sidewalk with froth around my the mouth, but I’m just a sucker for preparedness.
Fine Scylla. You’ve got your opinion, which differs from mine and every one of the many runners I know.
Sorry my second link was to the home page of that site - a click on the left column “Training Programs” and another click on “Marathon Program” would have gotten you the info, but you don’t need to look. You already have the answers.
Yes, there are some incredibly fit old folks who finish (and kick my ass in) just about every long race. But the point you seem to be missing is, every one of these finishers is a member of the small minority within their age group who are committed to distance running. The overwhelming majority of their cohorts are either incapable of joining them, or simply think they are crazy. Hell, marathoners are a tiny portion of regular runners. Repeat marathoners an even smaller subset.
You totally miss my point. Completing a marathon is no big deal for a reasonably fit individual. However, for nearly everyone, it is not something one should undertake lightly or with insufficient preparation. All you need to do IMO is build a sufficient base (your 20-30 MPW), and then choose one of the countless 15-20 week programs out there, follow it religiously, and then set reasonable goal and keep within your planned pace.
But I’m not sure what world you are living on if you seem to have missed the tremendous incidence of injuries and DNF following marathons. And I guess we could all follow the patented Scylla stride, but the rest of us would not be shocked to learn that the very act of running is an extremely high impact activity.
You have a lot of valuable info to share, but to me, you come across as a zealot.
I think you’re just being argumentative with that ad popularum fallacy. I honestly don’t see us all that far part. We both agree that four months out you need a base and that base should be 20-30 miles a week. We both agree that several months out one will need to have longer runs of 15-20 miles. I presume that both of us agree that there should be a taper. There are hundreds of good training programs out there. Because we differ in some minor specifics you act as if there is a gulf between our viewpoints.
[quoteSorry my second link was to the home page of that site - a click on the left column “Training Programs” and another click on “Marathon Program” would have gotten you the info, but you don’t need to look. You already have the answers.[/quote]
Then I won’t. I’m glad you concede that I’m Mr. Big Stick Man, here. Besides you only get one shot with your cites. Get it wrong and you lose the debate. It’s right there in the FAQ.
Feeling testy?
Ok. Sure. Why is this, though? You could run another marathon if you wanted to, couldn’t you? You just don’t want to, right? I respect that. I suspect one day I will grow tired of it and move on to the Rush Limbaugh Competitive Waterboarding League or something.
My point here, is that a lot of people are trying to make it like it’s a physiological rarity to be able to complete a marathon, or an accident of genetics. Mostly, I’d say it’s about desire. That’s all. The problem I have, and why I am arguing so strongly is that I think there is a lot of asshattery in terms of some arguing as if marathoning is some elite activity uncontemplatable to the average man not posessing the genetic gift of being able to exercise. I see a general denial of the health benefits of exercise here, and I see that as a rationalization for being unhealthily out of shape. If I’m proselytizing, my messge is that for the vast majority of folks out there, those without major health issues being fit enough to run a marathon is within their grasp and it’s a good place to be. Whether or not they ever run a marathon is moot. Being in “marathon shape” is healthy.
Having run only one, there’s something you don’t know. The first is by far the hardest. Once you reach the point where you can do one, where you’ve built the endurance, built up the bones and muscles and joints, maintaining that level is nowhere near as onerous a commitment as having gotten there in the first place.
I speak from seven years of experience, on this, and most everybody I run with would agree.
So, I think that being in “marathon shape” is both a good thing from a wellness standpoint, and an achievable and worthy goal for the vast populace whether or not they ever undertake the event.
I beleive I understand your point, but your missing mine. We both agree that it’s no big deal for a reasonably fit individual. I simply think it would be a good idea for most people to take care of themselves to the point where they are reasonably fit. As a nation we are woefully inadequate in this regard, and justify it with fallacious rationalizations that ignore the health hazards of lassitude.
I would agree.
Sure. I think a lot of that comes because people are inadequately prepared for the task at hand, or ramp up their mileage to quickly. As a local fitness Nazi I’ve helped maybe a dozen people train for and complete a marathon and got them all through. A great organization is Team in Training. If somebody has the desire and is in reasonable all that person has to do is commit to raise money for Leukemia. Team in Training will assign a coach and help that person raise money for Leukemia by getting pledges to run a marathon.
This is people who are not in shape and do not a base, as well as reasonably fit individuals like we talk about. They have a very high success level.
When you learn you are running for little Timmy Clausen who is hospitalized with Leukemia, and is avidly following your progress as you train and raise money you tend to get committed, and take it seriously. “TiT” serves the dual purpose of raising money for Leukemia and helping charitable inclined people get in shape. Browse their cite, read their methodology and success stories and I think you’ll agree that a marathon isn’t simply for the elite. It’s easily in reach most average people if they care to do it.
All I’m saying is that the reason so few run a marathon is that so few care to. Which is fine, but a different argument than saying few could.
I take no credit for it. People have been doing it that way for about a million years. But, you are right. Running is high impact. People with injuries or weak joints, or who have been chronically inactive are likely to injure themselves by diving right into running. When I had surgery this June, I spent a month on that low impact cylinder training thing so my stitches wouldn’t rip open and my vitals wouldn’t fall out.
[qote]You have a lot of valuable info to share, but to me, you come across as a zealot.
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I prefer the term “Fanatic” or “Fitness Nazi” thank you very much. Yes, I suppose I do. But, I suppose when one is up against the ignorance we’ve seen in this thread one is like to take the other extreme.
Scylla, this was a really good post.
I have run 5 marathons, and if you told me when I was in high school that I would have, I would never believe you. Back then I was 30 pounds overweight, and had out of control asthma. I had my mom write me notes to get out of running the mile in gym class. Who knew that I really had it in me back then?
Also, good point about the number of DNFs. I think marathon culture is slowly changing (much in part to TnT in fact) that the average Joe now thinks it’s possible to run a marathon. But sometimes the average Joe does some really stupid shit and frankly isn’t ready on race day. Those are the people that we really need to focus on - get them educated so they don’t end up dead on the course.
Again Scylla I speak as a former marathoner and a triathlete (albeit, again, in a transitory fat sack interval) … no big deal to do a marathon. If I can anyone can. All you need is the stubbornness to put in the time day after day and the long run once a week. Lots of good and reasonable plans out there to follow. As you’ve said, there are plans that can safely take someone from novice runner to marathon completer within six months. But I do think that training for a marathon year after year is a good idea only for a few. I can train for tri’s over and and over again and unless I have a spill I can bike ride forever without killing my joints. But the repeat marathoners I know fall into two camps: those with a good natural loping light stride; and more heavy footed runners who end up with crapped out knees or switching to other fitness goals. I know only a few of the former and more of the latter. Sure that’s anecdotal but I know that no matter what my base my right knee will start to hurt at mile 13. You may have been a fat wheezy slob before you got the bug, but that light stride of a distance runner was buried in you just as David was buried inside Il Gigante waiting for Michelangelo to carve him out. No amount of training will get me that stride. It isn’t in me. (Now that said, when I’m in half ironman shape it would be very little to be ready for a marathon within six weeks, just for kicks … but that’s not how most marathon train.)
It’s fine to be a fitness fascist, but distance running at marathon training levels year after year, without the ample cross-training that you do, is not the best choice for many to get there. IMHO.
Sure it is. Didn’t your listen to anything I said? There’s nothing secret about that “glide” as you call it. You can learn to do it a lot easier than you can pick up a topspin forehand, too.
If you want to develop it, go run barefoot in the woods. As soon as you step on a couple of hard sticks with your heels, you’ll learn. Within a mile, you’ll learn the only way you can run without ripping your feet to shreds is stay off your heels, place your feet rolling from outside to inside. Once you have it, it’ll feel natural. Once you understand what you are doing, try it with shoes on and you’ll be gliding like a Kenyan.
It’s fine to be a fitness fascist, but distance running at marathon training levels year after year, without the ample cross-training that you do, is not the best choice for many to get there. IMHO.
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