chicksdigscars people with mental illnesses can not be equated with violent criminals

The BBQ Pit
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Being black, gay, or mentally ill are not the same things. If one where to point in my general direction and say, “you’re black”, or “you’re gay”. I don’t think I would be too much offended, seeing as how there is nothing inherently bad about either. However, Being mentally ill is bad. I say this because of the torture I went through growing up, raised by a mentally ill mom. It kills not only the person who is ill, but also the people around her who watch her slowly wither. I remember the mornings I got up and was told to get some cereal; I was not going to school today, mommy was to scared to get out of bed. I remember the mornings I did go to school, praying and praying to all that was holy that my mother will pick me up. That I did a good enough job hiding all the knives, razors etc from her. Nothing compares to the gut wrenching fear you have calling everyone you can because you haven’t seen her for two days and you are terrified she killed herself. The relief at finding her and how good you feel when she is actually having one of her good days. Take it from me, mental illness is bad. I’m sorry if that makes me insensitive, ignorant, or uneducated. I have been staring mental illness in the face since I was a small child and I am finding Blake’s rabid PCness regarding it a little annoying. Mental illness is something we should be informed and compassionate about. It is not something that “hi diddley do makes life so gosh darn interesting” as the undertone I have been detecting in your posts, indicates. That attitude would make it more comparable to gays and blacks.
To sum up, Mental Illness is bad, therefore can be construed as an insult. Feeling this way does not mean that you do not have compassion, respect, or feeling for ones who are stricken.

Mental Illness is bad; therefore, we should do all we can to make sure no family struck by it falls through the cracks.

I for one, thought that **Diogenes ** crass and trite accusation was much more offensive, given the nature of what I have been through.

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chicksdigscars wasn’t ridiculed for his beliefs. Here’s what he said:

If someone had said the same thing about God (“Ok, you want proof that God exists? I said that God speaks to me in my heart. That isn’t enough proof?”) then he would be justly ridiculed, but again, not because of his beliefs. It’s because he’s expecting us to believe an extraordinary claim with no more evidence than a personal, unverifiable anecdote, especially one that could be explained by not-so-extraordinary means.

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Torie I agree that being black, gay, or mentally ill are not the same things. I was pointing out the flaws in Metacom’s position. Do not mix analogies. He admits that his response is ignorant and wrong and hurtful, and then says that it’s acceptable to do it because it’s a shitty planet. That’s a crock of shit. Something does not become right just because the planet is shitty. Society places a stigma on being black and gay as well as on being schizophrenic. That does not make being gay or black insulting. That also does not justify an ignorant and wrong and hurtful response.

I repeat, do not mix your analogies.

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Torie, mental illness is not “bad” in the sense that the person with the illness is bad. And that is the way that it is most often treated by society as a whole. If people stop thinking about being asked if they have the disease as an isult, then maybe people will seek treatment earlier and it won’t have the horrible consequences it has had for so many. Maybe there will be more public funding for research and treatment and home care.
I am sorry that life has been so difficult for you because of mental illness.

Statements of faith, if I understand correctly, don’t belong in Great Debates. Further, chicksdigscars did not claim that her sightings of ghosts were matters of faith, but proof that ghosts exist. Christians are often ridiculed for holding their beliefs – it comes with the territory. We are not supposed to get angry about it, but somtimes we do.

If you read the original thread, you will find that some of us who have been critical of chicksdigscars handling of the debate are open to possibilities that might include what some call “the supernatural.” That’s not why we were critical of her.

As far as the mentally ill thing goes, no one wants to be ill. Being ill is to look like crap, think like crap and feel like crap. So if one asks another if they are ill, they are implying the above to be true of the other. It is possible for you to not want to be thought of that way without implying that the mentally ill should be ashamed or are not worthy of help.

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Excuse me, I forgot to respond to that last paragraph, which was Torie’s, not mine:

Not all mentally ill people look like crap or think like crap. Sometimes, with the right medication, they don’t feel like crap either. Please don’t perpetuate the stereotype. Some mentally ill people, especially the depressed, let themselves go; others do not.

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For the record, I agree completely. I find any belief that’s based purely on faith, with no objective proof whatsoever, to be ridiculous, including pretty much everything that passes for “religion.” To me, it’s a sign that the person is willing to toss rationality out the window in at least one corner of his or her life. This makes me wonder about that person’s ability to be rational in other areas.

Do I want a religious mechanic working on my brakes? Is he going to test the brakes to make sure they work, or is he simply going to accept, on faith, the fact that they’ve been reassembled properly? How can I tell? Remember, this is a person who has demonstrated his willingness to believe a lot of things without any proof whatsoever. I’ll take the rationalist, thank you very much.

You’re also right about the anger that would come out of the woodwork if a Christian were ridiculed on these Boards the way the believers in ghosts, energy beings, and near-death experiences have been. We’ve seen some examples very recently. Part of the difference has been that those people were able to couch their silly notions in high-sounding phrases, but when the pretension is stripped away, those beliefs are no more defensible than those of chicksdigscars. But don’t dare point that out!

Those who maintain that chicksdigscars wasn’t being attacked for her beliefs, but solely for her debating tactics, are putting a very fine point on things, to say the least. Let’s just say that those who express more conventional beliefs generally don’t have their debating tactics subjected to such scrutiny.

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I’ll assume this is irony.

Otherwise, it should be noted that acute sensory perceptions aren’t tightly related to social cognition.

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I agree with this completely.

This part I’m not so sure about. It looked to me that Diogenes was more intent on ripping apart CDC’s post than debating. Yelling “cite”, though I know is an everyday event, didn’t strike me as something that CDC was going to understand from the direction her posts had already gone. While I certainly don’t think it is Diogene’s job to instruct CDC on forum rules, I think it was pretty obvious she didn’t really lurk or have much of a clue of what GD is all about.

As far as me not thinking it was an honest question, she had mentioned seeing ghosts when she was approximately 8-10 years of age. I don’t read that as her saying she hallucinates on a regular basis. I also don’t see what business it was of Diogenes to ask whether she had ever been in the hospital or even “been on meds”. Maybe I’ve misread Diogenes, but rather than feel disturbed by CDC’s response, I actually was more bothered by those questions of Diogenes in the first place. Even the italicizing of the word “hallucination” seemed pretty condescending.

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Asking if you have schizophrenia isn’t insulting?

Are you insane?

Regards,
Shodan

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I was immediately reminded of badchad asking Polycarp if he’d forgotten to take his pills.

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There is a bi difference. Chicksdigcars said that ghosts exist, not that Ghosts speak to her or any other statement of the subjective. She made an objective statement about the existence of ghosts. Every time a religious person has said “God exists” as a fact in GD they have received the same treatment. Quick search of old posts will show you this is true.

HandsomeHarold made a statement about what these beings are made of. Not a statement of the subjective kind you posted Torie, but an objective statement. If a religious person stated that God is made of cheese they would receive the same treatment.

Dubious objective statements in GD will usually prompt calls for references no matter whether speaking of God or George W.

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Ooh, ooh! Can we start calling him “Dubious George?” I like it! :smiley:

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For the last time Blake, stop referring to me as HE. I am a WOMAN. And no matter how many “big” words you use, you will still be an asshole.

Did I understand that my debate technique sucked? Yes, I admitted that in one of my posts. Yes, I admitted that it was incorrect to use that one site to support my position when I did not have further research. And I repeatedly asked for guidance on what you needed proof of. For those of you that responded, THANK YOU. I will keep your comments in mind for the future.

You don’t believe in ghosts? Fine. I can’t offer you evidence that I saw them because no such evidence exists. If evidence of ghosts existed, incontrovertible evidence, we wouldn’t have started this conversation in the first place. I will remember the comments about ANECDOTAL evidence in the future. Yeah, I know what that is.

You attacked me because of my beliefs, and I didn’t help matters because I could not cite evidence. However, I appreciate the comments of some people above who realize that I was NOT equating schizophrenia with violence and who realize that I was NOT saying anything derogatory about schizophrenics.

Someone else said that the question by Diogenes was “valid” and not an attempt to belittle me. Well, when the questions start out, “Are you on medication? Have you ever been hospitalized?” how am I supposed to take it any other way?

So, for Blake and others who still think I was insulting schizophrenics, FUCK OFF.

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And Blake, I read your explanation of why you refer to me as “HE.” It is NOT OKAY. You’re just a putz and you want to insult me at every opportunity.

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I posited the question “Would you be offended if someone called you schizophrenic because you saw a ghost” to some friends, and this is the response I got:

HELL YEAH!

I’m presuming that these people are sober adults and were addressing you in earnest in a message board. That’s a pretty scary scenario, but not as scary as it would be real life. It’s strange how some message board discussions can devolve into exchanges that no one would have the guts to say to each other in real life. How can people forget that there are real human beings behind those posts?

Asking if someone is schizophrenic just because they have admitted to seeing ghosts shows a) complete ignorance of schizophrenia and b) not much respect for you. On top of that, responding that you were insulting schizophrenics by being offended is just a cheap way to a) “solidify” their position or b) save face. If they don’t know what schizophrenia is, how can they presume what would offend a schizophrenic person? They messed up.

I’d be annoyed too, but from the sounds of it, it doesn’t seem like the type of people who confronted you with this are really worth taking seriously with regards to mental health. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of people like that out there, who spout off despite their complete ignorance of the subject at hand. I tend not to hang out with those types of people, even if some of them happen to be my relatives.

In casual conversation, asking if someone has cancer, diabetes, a baby on the way or any other condition is frickin’ rude. Why? Because a) your medical condition is something you disclose voluntarily and not when asked by anyone and b) the person who asked that question is giving a “pop diagnosis”, i.e. thinks that you have characteristics that they associate with the condition, whether they’re valid or not. That’s not very nice. IMHO, the only exception to that is when someone looks like they’re in distress and you ask, “Are you ok?”
If you follow this link, you will discover that I DO NOT fit the diagnosis of schizophrenia http://www.mja.com.au/public/mentalhealth/articles/hustig/husbox1.html

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Oh good grief.

I’m diagnosed schizophrenic and * have no difficulty figuring out that if someone says to someone they’re arguing with, “Are you schizophrenic or something?”, they don’t mean “Gee, I noticed that you are unusually flexible in your ability to get beyond linear rational thought and make cool unpredecented intuitive connections”.

Of course it is intended as an insult.

To argue that because schizophrenics can be cool people (or should not have to be ashamed about things that are beyond their control or whatever) it is therefore offensive to take offense at being asked “Are you schizophrenic?” is ridiculous.

If I’m on the receiving end of such a question, I can smile and say “Yes, but I still have a better grip on reality than you do at the moment”, but we all know that the subtext of the question, when posed in this kind of context, is “Are you fuckin’ nuts or somethin’?”

It’s like when someone asks you if you’ve had your morning coffee yet. They aren’t asking out of a concern for your overall well-being, they’re trying to discredit the functioning of your mind.

Stupid fucking political correctness junkies!

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chicksdigscars:
Psssst. There is no winning this battle. Chalk it up to experience and move on. Sharpen your debating skills, and this will all go away.

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Don’t perpetuate the stereotype?? Mentally Ill people WITH TREATMENT put their lives back together, as my mother is doing now. The statements I made do not apply to them.

However, with the exception of the feel like crap bit, they are not stereotypes, they are symptoms of a disease.

People with mental illness do generally feel badly, or think badly, or at least act badly. Sometimes all three. If this were not true of nearly all mentally ill, there would be no disease. These people wouldn’t be any different then the rest of the world.

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Nobody called you a schizophrenic, CDC. By positing the question that way, you’re continuing mislead people about what actually happened in that thread. What happened is that you described a symptom (seeing things that nobody else can see) and attributed it to paranormal phenomena. DtC asked you questions designed to determine whether or not some other common explanations for that same symptom might hold true in your case. One of those questions was, “Are you schizophrenic?” Your response to this question was to interpret it as an accusation (which it clearly wasn’t) and to take really ridiculous amounts of offense at it.

Look, walking up to someone and asking out of the blue if they have cancer, diabetes, or a baby on the way is rude. No argument here. But it’s rude not just because you’re totally violating their privacy, but because there’s no context between you and the other person to make that question acceptable. If, on the other hand, in the midst of a conversation with someone, the person tells you, “I haven’t had my period in three months,” it might just be pretty acceptable to respond with, “Are you pregnant?” If someone says, “When I go a few hours without eating, I feel all dizzy and sick,” it seems pretty normal to me to say, “Have you been checked for diabetes?”

Context, CDC, context. Like it or not, you opened the door on this one. Stop acting like DtC committed some hate crime against you. You blew it way out of proportion, and Blake’s pitting of you is pretty understandable.

In another recent thread, Blake “accused” me of being a virgin. In the context of the discussion, it could have been interpreted as an insulting, dismissive response to what I was saying. I didn’t go screaming and ranting all over the thread, hijacking the damn thing beyond all hope of salvation. I simply responded in the negative, remembering that Blake was drawing on the material I had provided him in the form of my posts and suggesting a conclusion that he thought was a reasonable one, given that he really knows nothing about me. I corrected his misapprehension and we moved on. If he had come back at me accusing me of lying about it, I would have pitted him. But he didn’t. Nor has anyone accused you of lying about your mental status. You’re not a victim here. Stop insisting someone was malicious when he has denied malicious intent. It’s really rude. :slight_smile:

And, on preview, AHunter3, did you read the post in question? (I’m not trying to demean you here, I’m sincerely asking. No offense, 'kay?) It’s really hard for me to interpret DtC’s post in such a way as to get it to mean, “I’m in the middle of an argument with you and in order to gain an advantage I’m going to impugn your sanity – Are you schizophrenic or something?”

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Hey, chicksdigcigars, since you’re a chick, do you dig cigars?