Child Free Fanaticism: get over your bad self

The BBQ Pit
1

The Sunday NYT Magazine had an article on the child-free movement. I’ve heard some of this before, and had some thought-provoking conversations with some folk on a newsgroup about it. I get, at its heart, the sentiment. You don’t have kids, you don’t want kids, you’re not interested in kids. Fine.

Why is it such a CRUSADE to seek out every kid-related phenomenon and bitch away about it? In this article, the child-free zealots were expressing absolute fury over things like the fact that kids resided in their neighborhoods, the way political issues are swathed around children to make them more compelling, the fact that we’ve got a tax credit for kids, etc. They bitched about the fact that private and public resources are spent on children. They invented shitty names for offspring and for the people who are selfish enough to have them. They spoke bitterly of people who ask nosy questions about ‘starting a family.’

I understand those things are a mite annoying to those who aren’t interested. And frankly, I think there is some merit to a complaint that there is some discrimination and unfair treatment because parents get benefits and consideration that they never get. But Mother of Fucking God, folks, this is a society. Kids are a part of it. There is a cost, to society, to raising them–at least there is if you want them to turn out decent. And for those among you zealots who point out we’d be better off with NO KIDS, ever, given the earth’s population… well, I don’t see you volunteering to commit suicide to help the cause. You were a kid once. So, incidentally, was Jonas Salk, Albert Einstein, the mechanic who got your car working last week, and the lead singer of that band you like so much. The people who make your life worth living didn’t hatch as adults–and the people who might save your world in the future might be the kid you are sneering at today.

Here is an analogy that has some weaknesses, but…

I don’t drink coffee. I don’t like coffee, I don’t even like the smell of it. Yet every day, my officemates take breaks to drink it. My office uses common funds to buy the coffee, the creamer, the sugar, the machine, etc. We even pay for a water cooler so we can make better tasting coffee. Furthermore, since my town is like the Seattle of the Midwest, there are coffeehouses everywhere. Every time I go out to eat for breakfast (or after dinner), the waitress asks if I want coffee… I’d go on but you get the point, so I move to my next one:

Do I invest a lot of time bitching about it? Do I complain about the breaks my coworkers take every day, about the fact that I don’t take the same? About the fact that office funds go to subsidize their habit? About the fact that I’d much rather see other stores where those coffeehouses are? That I see coffee mugs everywhere I go? That the waitress assumes I’ll have coffee, and has the temerity to ask? That I have to smell it in every restaurant, that it takes up a whole fricking half an aisle in the grocery store? Do I threaten to end friendship with a couple because they try to get me to drink coffee after dinner at their house? Do I speculate on the supposed indirect costs to me, if coffee raises long-term health care costs to those who drink it?

<B>NO.</B> I don’t bitch because it’s just fricking stupid and petty to do so. Okay, so I don’t drink coffee. End of fucking story. I don’t have to wage some war against those who do, develop an entire movement of martyrdom and try to rail against all the way coffee is “forced” on my poor self.

I get it. You don’t like kids. You don’t want kids. I won’t ask you to hold mine, then, and I won’t force you to listen to me tell cutesie stories about him. But I am NOT going to take you seriously when you fight to build yourself an entire existence utterly free from anything that has anything to do with children. And I’ll laugh long and hard when you try to make yourself out to be suffering mightily because of the way society focuses too many resources on kids.

Before you childless folks freak out, please realize that this rant isn’t directed at everyone who likes to tout their “child free” lifestyle. BTDT, and more power to you. It’s directed at the maniacal zealots. If that’s you, well, I guess this is the start of a long conversation. AND DON’T OFFER TO BUY ME A CUP OF COFFEE WHILE WE TALK ABOUT IT!! <grin>

2

I don’t have kids, I don’t want kids, my wife doesn’t want kids. I don’t mind my tax dollars going to schools, I went to public schools…when will I get pissed and begin to rant?

WHEN I HEAR: WHEN ARE YOU HAVING KIDS?, WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS, I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU DON’T WANT TO HAVE KIDS!, WHEN’S YOUR WIFE GONNA START WORKING AND HAVE KIDS?

all our friends have kids. family pressures towards us, social pressures. great party (five moms in the living room nursing) I don’t care, live and let live, etc, etc, etc. assumption, assumptions, assumption…we’re both professionals, we like our careers, we’ll let you know if we want to have kids…

everything these days has to have a movement. An excuse for all the childless to get toghether and bitch.

I kinda feel better now.

3

OK… how about a nice cup of herbal tea instead? :smiley:

[fixing myself a cuppa joe]

As one who is childless through no fault of her own, I do tend to agree with you. I’m sick of people politicizing everything. Kids are wonderful, for the most part, and they do require a certain investment in time and energy.

My kvetch, actually, is all those people whose lives revolve around their fucking kids. I go to school with a girl who couldn’t believe that not everyone wants kids. Her life IS her son, and she’s always talking about him and what he does. I’m honestly surprised she hasn’t talked about the amount, shape, smell and color of his bowel movements, but that may be next week’s topic.

I left an otherwise excellent job because most of the people in the office were pregnant. It was getting to be a circus, what with those on maternity leave coming in with their babies, and everyone else ooohing and aaahing. I choose to work in a professional environment, and to me, that means no kids in the office.

In sum, it’s not the kids that bother me, it’s their parents.

Robin

4

Cranky, right on.

I would ask these zealots, what would you have had YOUR mother say if faced with the question? No, fuck it, I won’t have my little zealot-to-be? We wish…

Zero population growth, as I understand it, means one kid per person (so 2 for a couple)- simply replacing yourselves on earth. Given the first law of natural selection, this would actually reduce the population (more will be born than can survive). However, I read in Time that “natural selection has ceased to be a factor in human evolution”, allegedly.

So hey, my one isn’t even impacting population growth!

But seriously, if you don’t want kids, don’t have any. But relax if we like ours! And frankly, I could think of nothing better for my child than to have him be my number one priority. We’ve all seen what wonderful citizens come out of shitty environments where the parents don’t care.

5

FTR, I don’t want kids. However, I may someday change my mind. That said:

I have no complaint about parents, future parents, or their children. Well, maybe one. Kids, at least the ones in my neighborhood, have no manners. I have two apple trees in my yard; one on the side and one in the back. I make wine, pie, cider, etc. with these apples. The children of my neighborhood are constantly stealing them and the kids right across the street from me are the worst. This results not only a shortage of apples, but a huge mess to clean up with leaves and broken branches.

Not only do they steal my apples but earlier this summer, when I planted grass in my yard near the side of the road, they happily rode their bikes through it. Repeatedly. This all wouldn’t be a very big problem (kids are kids) except that their parents can SEE them doing this. They watch them ride their bikes through my grass and steal the fruit of my trees. (Which isn’t even ripe yet so they probably aren’t even eating it.) Couldn’t they just tell their children that what they are doing isn’t polite? Couldn’t they tell their children if they would like an apple they could knock on my door and ask for one? (Which I would happily agree to, provided every kid in town didn’t ask for one.) Couldn’t they just go to the store and buy a sack of apples?

And I feel like the biggest bitch in the world for chasing these kids out of my yard. Just this morning I watched a few out my window (their mom was in the yard across the street sun tanning) knocked on the window and waved them away.

In short, kids are great. I think we may have to work on certain parents though.

6

EJsGirl said:

I’m gonna try not to get involved in this discussion, because I think it’s been done to death here in the Pit.

But I would like to point out the error of the above point. You do add to the world’s population with your one. If every couple has one generation at, on average, age 25, and every people lives until, on average, age 75, then every couple produces, indirectly, three children in their lifetime. So that’s a 150 percent increase in the population over one lifetime, assuming no major plagues, wars or what have you.

Having two children for every couple adds even more: If my math is right, (and I’m sure someone will tell me if it’s not) it comes up to 14 people.

I’m not disputing you having children (well, not yet anyway :)). Just don’t pretend you’re practicing zero population growth when you’re not.

7

I don’t have kids. I like kids, I just don’t have any.

I agree that a lot of the griping that the childless people does is unfounded. But just like anything else, there are examples both for and against our attitudes.

My prime example, that I use whenever I can: Where I used to work, we had to bid for shifts every quarter. You could start anywhere from 4-11am, and there were several other options (four ten-hour days a week, etc). People with children get first pick, regardless of seniority. The boss had kids, and said he was just “recognizing the importance of parents.” Like the rest of us weren’t worth anything because we hadn’t procreated yet.

As a result, none of us childless folk got the shifts we wanted, because they were also the ones that were popular with the parents.

The office also had “child grants”. Parents could apply for grant money to buy computers for their kids, send them to preschool, etc. I think that’s great. But there was never a “poor single childless person” grant, set up just in case I needed a hand with rent or something.

So when I whine about preferential treatment for parents it’s not to have anything taken away, I’d just like to have some of the same benefits for myself. Kids are a liability (in the strict economical sense), and I’ve subsidised other people’s kids my whole life. I don’t begrudge them education, health care, etc. But the line has been drawn pretty far out lately.

At the risk of shameful self-promotion, this is parallel to my thread on people who get married. Basically, people demanding benefits and support for their lifestyle choices. It works both ways, but I just happen to be on this side of the issue.

8

From a purely scientific/“mother nature” viewpoint, we ( and life as a whole) are on this earth for one reason, and that is to procreate. If you don’t even try to have a kid at some point in your life, than you have failed as an animal. What other animal species on earth chooses whether to have (or try to have) offspring or not? None, it’s a given. It is the only goal in life.

Go ahead, flame away, as I’m sure most of you will.

9

Part of the nature of intelligence is choice. No other animal chooses to build skyscrapers, cure diseases, or otherwise significantly modify their environment. The very nature of sucess in human existence is not measured quantitatively, it is the ability and motivation to make choices, arguably an ability that no other animal has on the same scale as us.

So there.

10

Friedo, I couldn’t have said it better myself.

I’m not going to flame here but I will say, who the fuck are you to tell me that I have failed as an “animal” just because, at this point in my life, I’ve not yet had the desire to procreate?

11

Good point, Ishi. The next time I see my best friend, who had to have both ovaries removed and is therefore incapable of having children, I’ll be sure to tell her that she’s a worthless piece of shit and a failure. Thanks for brightening the day of everyone trying but not succeeding, at getting pregnant.

Putz.

12

I’m sure everyone who has had problems getting pregnant, due to infertility or other health problems really wants to hear that they are genetic malformations.

Dumbass.

13

Sticking up for Ishi, he/she said TRY. You can try all you want, but if you are physically unable to have children that’s it. Not your fault. I believe Ishi was referring to people who just choose not to have kids, while still having the ability to do so. Like me. To which I must reiterate, who the fuck are you, Ishi, to tell me I’ve failed as an animal?

14

Necros: yeah, but your parents and grandparents are dying off all through the time you’re having kids. Look at it this way:

Start with two people (Adam &Eve) who have two kids (together, not each). Then some incest occurs (ewwwww) and their children have children. So yes, the population has grown. But then, as the grandchildren are having their two kids (hooray for incest!), the grandparents die. BAM! World population stabilizes at 6. Of course, you could say that maybe the grandparents live long enough to see their great-grandchildren, but the only effect there is to have it stablilize at 8, not 6. See??

15

I am among those who are childless by choice. Nobody’s business why. HOWEVER, I do not resent my tax dollars going to further the education, healthcare, happiness, whatever, of children. I think it is everyone’s responsibility to make the world a better place for themselves and the rest of humanity. If my tax dolllars can do that, more power to 'em. I love my nieces and nephew and foster-sister and will do whatever I can to make sure they have a good world to grow up in. My only resentment is for people like that Ishi-ot who think that we are freaks and failures if we choose not to have children. No, I’m not a selfish person. No, I don’t lack maternal instincts (I’m really very motherly, but find other outlets for that feeling.) No, I wasn’t abused and fear same for my child. I just don’t want to/plan on having my own children. That does not make me a bad person. I also do not proselytize, preach, or otherwise try to convince others not to have children. Why do they think they must convince me to have kids? Just because having children gives their lives meaning, doesn’t mean I must do the same.

16

I’d rather fail as an animal and succeed as a human being.

17

As Necros said, this discussion has happened before, and at great length, in GD I believe. It seems to be spinning out a bit less rancorously here in the Pit, I must say. (As I recall, about fifteen “childfree” people leaped on SingleDad in GD, who struggled valiantly but eventually succumbed. He doesn’t seem to post in the SDMB any longer, which is a pity.)

But to return to the OP. I read the Sunday Times Magazine article, too. I must say I enjoyed it! It was written by a working mother of two and appeared at first glance to be rather objective. But she ingeniously and subtly managed to make the childfree complainers look ridiculous.

Go back to the opening paragraphs…remember her main interviewee, the 31-year-old guy from suburban southern California? Remember his main bitches? He wanted to…TAKE NAPS ON HIS FRONT PORCH. Without the irritating noise of children at play to disturb him.

I’m not sure there’s ANYPLACE in urban or suburban America where THIS would be possible. Even if he lived in some Eden populated only by large-breasted 20-something women, their incessant VOLLEYBALL-PLAYING would stymie his afternoon nap-plans. Not to mention lawn-mowing, piano-playing, the grating din of book-pages being turned, and other ephemera of human life.

I think the writer did a marvelous job of taking the “people with children are just being SELFISH” argument and turning the tables neatly. There was quite a bit of “My co-worker took the afternoon off to take her son to the hospital! I want an afternoon off to go have a facial!” and “My co-worker gets emergency child care for free! I want a bonus so’s I can buy me a Porsche!”

18

LOL! I love it!

I never understood the whole “selfishness” thing either. Having children is one of the least selfish things you can do. Mothers actually share their body with their children, for almost a year of their lives. Is that selfish? Fathers work longer hours, couples risk their financial security. Parents sacrifice money and time and opportunities for their children. How could that ever be selfish? Parenting is the most daunting, challenging, exhausting and heart-wrenching job there is. And there is no pay, no overtime, no credit and no vacations.

19

How about this for rancor…I personally…and no SDMB “debate” will change my mind about this either…think that there is something inherently “wrong” with people who do not like children. I can often understand a person making a decision not to have a child, that’s different. But people who cannot see the “value” in a society that puts their children first are just a little sick, I think. Procreation is a basic biological urge, and really one of our better urges, also MNSHO.

The truth is if you go to the Human Rights Watch site you will find that America is one of the biggest violators of the rights of children. More so than some developing countries. Ten years ago the UN ratified a univeral treaty that most countries signed ensuring the rights of the child. Our country is yet to sign it. Doesn’t suprise me since we are putting children to death through our courts at an alarming rate. Americans are so selfish it’s enough to make you gag. I can’t go on, it pisses me off too much.

Needs2know

20

I guess that explains all those teen mothers on “Springer” who say, “I wanted to have a baby at 12 because I wanted something that belonged to me.”

Besides, people say “selfish” like it’s a bad thing. Most decisions are, ultimately, selfish. You didn’t have kids for me, or for society; you had them for you. Don’t be ashamed of it.