Tell me msrobyn, if you carried around a child in your midsection, gave birth after 24 hours of labor, and had to stay up all hours of the night caring for this child that had your genes and that you gave life to, would your life be devoted to this child? I think it would. Sure, it is annoying sometimes when all these people do is talk about their children and their lives are devoted to them. But these people are the parents that I would prefer taking care of all the world’s children. It’s the parents that say nothing about their children and never attend their academic and athletic events that you should be wary of. I think it is fantastic when a mother or a father talks about their child, and devote their lives to their children. I would even go so far as to say that it is their responsibility to do so. If you find it annoying that they are doing this, then you should re-examine your childhood and see what your parents did. I hope that you never have children with this attitude, and if you did, I feel sorry for them.
Chris: Ahhhh, don’t jump all over msrobyn.
I’ve got two kids, around whom my life revolves because if feel (as you do) there’s actually very little choice in the matter unless I want them to grow to be axe murderers, but I empathize with people who don’t want to hear every fascinating detail about their lives. Hell, I don’t want to hear every fascinating detail about some other kids’ lives, either.
If I’m with another parent, sure, I’ll talk child-raising, maybe even whip out a photo. But I don’t shove it down people-without-children’s throats, and I’m sure it’s appreciated.
I agree with you. People have children because they want them, in most cases. But I think Sweet Lotus’s point was that, once the baby appears, there’s very little time for a parent-person to continue being selfish.
“Hey! I think I’ll quit my job and follow Phish around the country for five months! Oh, darn, I forgot…I have a baby!”
“Hey! I think I’ll grab a magazine and go sit on the crapper for five minutes! Oooops! The baby’s crying!”
Hey Ike, I know that was harsh, but [insert cliche here]. I’m glad you feel the way that I do on the involving yourself in their lives issue, and its also good to see that you don’t cram your crap down other people’s throats. The world would be a better place if we could all see that.
Myrr21 said:
If I may, I’d like to respectfully retract my earlier posting. I thought about it all night, and could get the math to work out the way I thought it would. Not that I’m wrong, of course, I’m just right in a different way, which I don’t think I’ll go into here. Personally, I think the whole zero growth argument against having kids is kind of a non-starter. Lots of people on the earth doesn’t seem like a good thing, but the proof for that is, as I understand it, a little shaky.
Uke said:
As I recall, SingleDad kinda brought a lot of it upon him self with some imflammatory comments that he later retracted, and that the forces were pretty evenly matched between anti- and pro-kid. But I don’t think that, as you seem to infer, he left because of that thread. If he did, that really sucks. I miss him a lot. He was an extremely intelligent and valuable poster. If anyone’s interested, you can read all about it here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=23104
Needs2know said:
That’s OK. I persoanlly think…and no debate will change my mind about this…that most of the time you’re a fucking idiot. But hey, to each his own, right?
Anyway, I don’t hate kids. I dislike being around babies, but once children start to talk, they’re pretty dang cool. They definitely offer a different perspective on things, which I sometimes find wonderfully refreshing.
Honestly, it’s the parents I don’t like. I don’t like the fact that many of them don’t seem responsible enough to take care of themselves, let alone children. I dislike the basic rudeness and sense of entitlement that many of them seem to have. Your child may be the most important thing in your life, but it’s most definitely not the most important thing in mine, so don’t assume it is.
And lest I be understood, there are lots of good parents out there. I suspect they outnumber the bad. There are some people who are such good parents that we should all be glad they decided to lend their services to the human race. But, even good parents can do things that they perceive as being responsible, and yet are not. A case in point:
I was in a restaurant the other day. A woman had brought her three children, ages about 8, 6 and 1 1/2. The youngest began crying at the top of her lungs. Like any considerate human being, she took the baby outside, so it wouldn’t disturb others. But she left her other two children inside, and they began doing things that kids do when there is no adult supervision.
Just remember, when you leave your kids somewhere out of your view, you’re implicitly trusting society to take care of your kids for you. Think about that for a bit. And then be assured that I am not the one you want to be charged with looking after your children. Trust me on this.
One the selfishness issue, Uke said:
This just isn’t true. It’s just a different form of selfishness. In this case, your being selfish about the interests of your familial group. Just as most Americans are selfish about their community or country. It’s natural to want the best for the closest group to you, even if it’s at the expense of other groups.
Fucking idiot huh? That’s a good one, very “adult” and intelligent, very mature come back Necros. Perhaps you don’t care much for children because you recognize that you still possess the mind of a child, a petty small minded child at that. I may be an idiot but I’m just smart enough to see that your decision not to have children must indeed be a good one, for yourself and the rest of society. One such as you is quite enough.
Needs2know
Staying away from the merits of the ZPG theory (no kids here, thanks, had a vasectomy 6 years ago), it argues from false premises anyway. World population is increasing, but at a decreasing rate, and (warning: statistical bugaboo ahead) if current trends continue, will level off and begin decreasing. Some areas of the world are already reproducing below the replacement rate, and as prosperity in a region increases, individuals tend to have fewer children.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm…I think you want another word than “selfish.”
Webster’s Second defines “self” as
- The identity, character, or essential qualities of any person or thing.
- The identity, personality, individuality, etc., of a given person; one’s own person as distinct from all others.
And “selfish” as “Caring only or chiefly for self…”
So, by definition, if you’re responsible for the care and feeding of a little teeny human being, and you’re doing at least a halfass job, “selfishness” is one thing you can’t be accused of.
Perhaps “acting in self-interest” ? As in, “Uke is raising children so that when he and Necros are in the Nursing Home together, Junior will stop by to make sure that his Old Man gets a larger helping of gruel” ?
I won’t be having kids, I won’t miss having kids, but I like most kids. I also think parents have a big job, and I don’t mind them having a few tax breaks and other financial benefits.
However (as I think I mentioned on that other thread) I don’t want to carry an extra burden in the workplace because I am childless. I don’t want parents (or bosses) assuming that I’ll stay late all the time, because I don’t have kids, therefore, I have nothing important to do after work.
I don’t want my family/life treated is if it is not as important to me, because it does not include kids. An example I gave on that other thread: I had this crappy retail job. The day the Northridge Quake in '94, (in LA) I called in and said I couldn’t come into work. I had a handicapped sister and elderly friend at home, didn’t want to leave them alone on such a day. My boss had a fit. Insisted I come in. She said “If you had kids I would understand you not wanting to come in…” (By the way, I didn’t come in to work. Who shops at a fabric store the day of a major quake?)
That kind of attitude pisses me off. MY family is important to me. My mom, my siblings, my aunties. I may need to look after them, I may want to spend time with them. I do not think that anyone else gets to decide that my feelings or concerns about my family are not as vital, or important because kids are not in the picture.
That is my sole beef. I don’t think parents are “selfish”, and I’m not bitching about most things parents get. But I DON’T think I ought to be treated as if my life is not important because it does not include kids.
And, hypothetically - let’s say a person decides they don’t want kids, because they don’t want to responsibility or change in lifestyle it entails. If they had a job where the bosses constantly expected them to “cover” for the employees with kids (work long hours, miss holidays so the parents don’t have to) then I could see them getting pretty riled. They’d think - “Hey - I chose to NOT have kids so I’d have a footloose and fancy-free lifestyle, and now I’m being saddled with all these extra hours, and no holidays anyway, for someone else’s choice to have kids?” Yeah, I could see someone being really pissed about that. (No, it’s not happened to me like that. But apparently a lot of single people have been treated this way, and I think they have a legitimate beef there.)
Needs2know said:
But saying that people who don’t like kids have something fundamentally wrong with them, and that’s the way you think and no one can persuade you, nyah! is mature? Whatever.
Uke said:
Yeah, that sounds much better. Hey, can I borrow some of your gruel?
WHAAAAAT??? FIRST, you want to burden me with your stinking little varmits. Your malformed rug rats. Your sneeviling little ankle biters. THEN you want to bitch about me sounding off about it? Why, it’s only NATURAL and RIGHT that I should hate you for having kids.
Child free is the way to be!! You want to shit a whelp? Then you pay for it, FREELOADER! Don’t put your pathetic frills like SCHOOL and PUBLIC HEALTH on me. Get a job!
But in spite of plenty of reasons, I don’t hate kids. Kids are great, kids are sweet. If they’re cooked properly, that is. Why, I’ve got one of my own. Pickled in alcohol right here on my desk.
And I did too spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus. Well, Dr Zeuss, anyway. Headache? Let me tell you! There, I guess I showed you a thing or two. Don’t let it happen again.
Meanwhile, back on Earth, there is one thing I don’t understand about the whole childbirth thing. Granted, I’ve got the wrong plumbing to ever experience it. But once in awhile I hear one of the ladies tell how they were in labor for 38 hours, screamed in agony for 14 hours straight, got their entire crotch popped inside out with a 12 pound baby, gained 36 lb while carrying, destroyed their figure, were laid out for 2 months afterwards, haven’t slept a full night since last year, etc. Um, gee, bummer. Whatever. Then they follow that by saying it was the most beautiful experience of their life. WTF?? Yah, I suppose if I was dropping an anvil on my foot over and over, it would be a beautiful experience if I decided to stop. Is that it? Or am I missing something here.
You’re missing the absolute most bad-assed rush of endorphins combined with a hormone cascade that is all but indescribable.
It’s a pale comparison to say that giving birth was a far far far more euphoric experience than the best “X” I ever may (or may not) have parttaken of way back when while it was all legal-like.
Powerful stuff. Wish I could bottle it.
First of all Speakeasy…not every woman will tell you it was the most fabulous experience of their life…my first child was what they call “back labor”…felt more like I was attempting to shit a bowling ball…for 23 hours no less. I wanted a boy and got a pretty little split tail. Although she did turn out to be a big old tomboy and tough as nails. Thirty six pounds of weight gain, I wish, let’s try 63! Oh and breast feeding sucked! I hated it and the Le Leche League can kiss my ass. Second child, a boy, came out in far less time, but he looked like the Michelin Tire baby he had so many rolls. His head was big too, and as round as Charlie Brown’s. Not much problem with the labor but I bled like a stuck pig and had to be taken back and examined 8 hours later. If you’ve ever passed an 8 1/2 lb. baby through a 1 lb chute then you might understand how you don’t want anyone probing the site for a few days. Two days later I was up at 1:00, and passed something that very closly resembled a deer heart. Called the doctor, he wanted to know if it was the color of a racy corvette or the red like in currant jelly. Another examination of my most tender part. This darling little boy got sick on my about 2 months in and stayed that way for 3 years. I had a 3 year case of sleep deprivation. Should have joined the army cause I believe now I could sleep standing up, in a trench, in 4 feet of water with bombs going off over my head, and ten cups of coffee in my system. Oh shit I just dozed off and bumped my head on the laser printer!
None of it was fun. (Unless you want to call getting it over with fun. It is nice NOT to be preggers after nine months.) I tell that to all the young mother’s who ask me. I don’t think it’s meant to be fun. It’s supposed to be painful, tiring, and challenging. Since when has anything really worth having ever been easy?
Needs2know
You know, the point is pretty much moot because…and I know this is a worn-thread-thin cliche…it’s impossible to know what it’s like to have kids if you’ve never had any. I’m talking IMPOSSIBLE. I don’t care if you love Spot or Fluffy to death, it’s not the same.
On other boards I’ve seen people bitch because their employers give them a ration of shit and make them work longer hours to make up for the people who have to take time off for their kids. Quit bitching about the people with kids and start bitching about your EMPLOYER.
I’m sorry some of you don’t like the idea of publicly-funded education. You’re probably right. The kids whose parents can’t afford to send them to private school are undoubtedly going to end up father-raping crack addicts anyhow, right? You know, I don’t want my money going to fund tests to see whether or not a cat will die when shot in the head at point-blank range…but I’m not going to blame the cats.
I’ve also seen comparisons made along the lines of “my co-worker got two days off to take care of her kid, but I had to take a PERSONAL day to wait for the plumber. That’s fucked up.” No, what’s fucked up is thinking your ability to take a shower can compare to a seven-year-old with the chicken pocks. YOU can borrow a friend’s shower. I can’t trade my kid in for a healthier one for a couple of days.
This is exactly why my husband and I aren’t having children!
But seriously folks, my husband’s family has cancer and alcoholism, my family has heart disease, high blood pressure, depression and serious digestive problems. Both families have obesity problems and reproductive problems. We don’t want to bring a child into the world that we know will be at serious risk for disease. That, to me, is selfish.
However, we are also too selfish to devote our lives to children. We like our time for ourselves and to do whatever we want, whenever we want.
I’m really glad that there are so many people on this board that feel the same way. We were thinking we were freaks.
We just decided that the ONLY reason to have children was to please our families, because “it’s just what you do when you get married”.
BTW, we told our families and they were very understanding. Now my mom is pressuring my brother. Bwa-haaa-haaa!
But I don’t see a problem with funding going to children or people getting a tax break. Having children is a burden financially and parents deserve a tax break. I don’t deserve a tax break if I want to buy a new car or a boat. Big difference there.
And as for people talking about their children’s bowel movements, etc. Understand that their children are their lives (as they should be) and that’s what they’re going to talk about. (Yet ANOTHER reason we’re not having kids. “Did you know that my son has a boil on his ass?”)
In my experience, the EMPLOYER is usually also a parent. They get their priorities from the fact that they are parents, and have decided that anyone who isn’t a parent can’t possibly have anything important to do. Also in my experience, the other employees who are parents are all behind the employer’s policy. In fact, I had a co-worker who was a parent often say to me “You don’t have kids, you stay late.”
Whoa. This is a touchy one. As usual I’m somewhere in the middle on the issue (yeah, yeah) but a few points:
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everyone has a vested duty to kids in a societal sense. This is where I part company with Libertarian thought. A society can’t prosper or last without recognizing an obligation to the weak and the vulnerable. Kids especially are the damned future–and plain fact, some parents are more responsible than others. It just makes sense to nuture kids as future citizens.
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that said, having children is a choice. And it entails a lot of sacrifice, joy and work. The primary responsiblity for children rests with the adults who brought them into the world.
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having kids, not, whatever is the most personal decision possible and no one else’s damned business. If there’s anything ruder, cruder or viler than prying into someone else’s reproductive plans or history, I can’t think of it offhand. On both sides.
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the only place this debate is useful is where personal responsiblility intersects with broader interests.
Value judgments, attacking, defending…oh, please. Grow up.
I had to face this one as an employer, negotiating a union contract. The issue on the table was preferential and additional leave time for parents. “Family friendly” and “parent friendly” sound so great…until you try to nail it down.
I’ll spare you a synopisis of the deliberations (which were not confrontational, btw; good folks, all, trying to do well by people). But this is what it boiled down to in the workplace; employees are hired to perform work, at set wages and with set benefits. Work doesn’t go a away during personal emergencies, someone picks up the load and everyone cherishes their leave time.
By mandating preferential and extra leave for parents, a disproportionate burden was placed on others. It’s impossible, frankly impossible, to mandate a tidy list of values, in priority order, when allowing leave time.
Both sides agreed that it’s wrong to give/impose bosses responsiblity for deciding whose personal lives and issues are “more important” when allotting earned time.
That’s where I have to reluctantly draw the line giving preferential treatment to parents. Sure, a sick child must be cared for. It’s almost impossible not to personalize this; any parent who doesn’t put their kids first, think “my child needs care”, isn’t much of a parent.
But multiple parents in a workplace, each quite legitimately caring for their children, can unintentionally put a heavy–and unfair–load on coworkers who don’t fit into that category. Most people truly are understanding and willing to help out. But over time, that load causes resentment.
Sorry, this is much longer and rambling than I intended. But I wanted that preface to explain my position that while parenting is a tough, valuable role, it is a chosen role, with primary responsibility residing with the parent.
Veb