I find it hard to believe that a person who didn’t believe a given religion was The Truth would force their child to be a member of that religion.
I believe you were talking about children 14, 12, and even younger. At what age do you believe that children need to be allowed this religious freedom? If you are talking about 16, I think we would be having a very different conversation.
It sounds to me as though, other than the fact that my family attended church, your approach to teaching religion was the same as my parents…they allowed me to attend church or other religious services with my friends, they gave me information abouut other religions when I asked and they let me know how they felt about it. This is how I plan to bring up my kids as well…so what are we religious people doing that is so oppressive again? Oh, yeah, forcing them to practice it by spending an hour in church each week, and a CCD class every other Saturday for about 6 years. I spent A LOT more time practicing the piano than I ever did practicing my religion.
Quite frankly, I don’t believe that the way you disseminated information about religion to your son gave him any more ability to have that freedom of expression of self than my kids are likely to get. You may think that I am “indoctrinating” my kids in a specific religion, but you “indoctrinated” yours not to care, by your not caring. It’s not like you don’t have an opinion on the matter, and I’m sure your son heard it loud and clear, no matter where you allowed him to go when he was a kid.
My kids are just as free as yours to think about religion and to figure out what it means to them…but at least they have a jumping-off point to do it from. They have been given ideas that they can think about and decide whether they think these ideas are right, wrong, or just slightly off. The child who is barely taught that religion exists is likely never to even think about it…why should they? Life is easy enough without religion, and they don’t have any idea the joys or comforts it can bring them.
I don’t. I know a great many parents who are smart enough to know that you can’t force somebody to believe. The children may adopt the external trappings of membership, but wise parents know that this is just a facade.
I think the word “force” is being bandied about here rather freely. I have a religion, which I feel very much a part of, and which my husband is a part of. We both have our issues with it, we both believe that there are other ways to reach God, but being Catholic is who WE are. We attend church together, and naturally we bring our 2-year-old with us. Do you consider this to be “forcing” her to practice a religion against her will? She will continue to go with us throughout her toddler and eventually her grade-school years, since, as I said, I see no reason to get a baby sitter. Some days she will not want to go…she will want to stay home and watch TV. Still, she will come with us. She is too young to have a religious objection, other than she thinks church is boring. But, we are going, and we can’t leave her at home. Do you consider this to be “forcing” her to practice a religion against her will? In first grade, I will sign her up for CCD classes, in the hopes that she will learn a little about the religion, and it will have more meaning for her, and church won’t be so boring. She definitely will protest sometimes about going to school on Saturday, but again, the actual content is not what she has a problem with…it’s just the situation. Do you consider this to be “forcing” her to practice a religion aginst her will? Eventually, she may actually have theological issues with the religion…adolesence is pretty typical. She may start to make noises about not wanting to be confirmed. She may have very hard-to-answer questions and doubts. This is when my earlier explanation of talking, trying to work it through, and trying to figure out what is a real objection vs. just being a teenage pain in the ass. These are where the hard decisions are going to come into play for me and my husband, but as stated earlier, I am not inclined to put her in a straitjacket and drag her there kicking & screaming. I am not sure if you believe this entire process of teaching a child religion is “forcing” them, but if you do, I can assure you that many, many people who are relatively unsure of their religion will do the exact same thing. I know people who make their kids go to Catholic school and take them to mass every week, and they themselves wouldn’t attend in a million years if they didn’t have the kids. They just want to raise their kids with a foundation. As Eonwe pointed out, there are many reasons that a person may want to teach their child their religion. The idea that it is “The Truth” I think is relatively low on the list.
Of course, I’m sure people who DO think their religion is “The Truth” may be stricter or more insistent that their child stick with it.
Sure, of course it does. It’s part of being a human, I certainly have it myself from time to time and I don’t think I am unusual. The question is always, what to do with that disconnect? I think it is wrong to teach a person that, because they feel disconnected, they should of necessity remain in that disconnected place. Again, I think we may be talking past each other in some way I can’t quite get my finger on.
He can pursue faith or non-faith as he sees fit however I feel about it and this has always been true. And I don’t know what forced hyprocrisy you are talking about exactly. Children whose parents teach them that religion is not important generally grow up to believe that it is not important. There are of course exceptions on both sides, since if the parents’ feelings about it are the determining factor we are by definition not discussing an mature decision on the subject.
Well, I certainly agree with the first part as I have done it myself. The second part is also no doubt true; but I am strongly tempted to say, “so what?”, since the reverse is also true. A person can also feel disconnected from family, friends and community while belonging to a church. So feelings are funny things and what’s that got to do with anything?
Ditto. The examen is nowadays a fairly commonly used method of meditation for catholics and non-catholics alike. (I have obviously explained it badly as it has nothign to do with politics or external events but is abotu our own response to things we encloountered that day.) BUt there is no getting around the fact that, like losts of things, it’s a very catholic notion, rooted in very catholic notions. Carnaval without Lent is, well, just getting shitfaced. Which is okay, but it isn’t the same thing at all.
I think my family’s way is terrific, mostly. BUt I did not think so all the time when I was a kid. Much of it I did not appreciate until I was myself an adult. And some of it I am still understanding.
Whoops, sorry, I think I screwed that up. That was from Kalhoun’s post.
>red face< first time I ever tried that multi-quote box thingie…
I was using this example to answer your example; I also added that a 16-year-old most probably gave up the idea of education before he actually dropped out – probably cutting class or doing nothing while he was there. There are legal constricts surrounding education; not so with religious training.
That’s great, though I personally would object to CCD class, as it puts catholicism at a higher level of exposure than other religions. I assume you prayed at home as well? Said grace at mealtime? It’s an entire environment of religion; not simply a few hours per week. If that’s not the case, I stand corrected.
Yes…as I said, he knew my opinion on the subject, but wasn’t told he can’t explore or that he has to think the way I think, or even that I had the answer! There’s a difference between being true to yourself and asking another person to be true to that as well. I hardly think I’d categorize myself as someone who doesn’t care. I care very much…just not in the same way you do. We come at the Big Questions with a clean slate.
My kid had a jumping off point as well…it just didn’t point him to one specific landing point over all others. He had my full support in whatever religious pursuit he may have chosen. He was surrounded by plenty of believers and chose the secular world. Life is no easier without religion than it is with it. We make personal moral and ethical choices every day, just like you. He was afforded all the joy and comfort a believer was; but received it through humanistic means. He wasn’t “barely taught” religion. We discussed the concept of faith and the probability of there being a god, what difference it makes if there is one, etc. I just didn’t tell him god exists. And I didn’t tell him how to go about finding out.
How do you know she doesn’t have a problem with the content? What if she does? Why not let her pursue religious training when she wants to? Contrary to what you believe, lots of kids have a problem with the content. What’s the hurry? She has her whole life to pursue religious training on her own terms.
As I said, teaching one religion over all others is what I have a problem with. The exposure, the concepts, all of it, toward one religion over the others is indoctrination. I have a jewish friend who married a catholic girl. They belong to a church that gives their children the full monty on both religions. While it’s not perfect, it more honestly reflects their desire to give their kids a well-rounded exposure to religion.
I believe that if a kid is old enough to stay home alone, they’re old enough to decide whether or not they need to attend church with you.
Have you never heard of Stockholm syndrome? 
Beyond the legal constrictions, do you believe that a parent has a right to make an under-16-year-old go to school? What about taking certain subjects? When I was in HS, my mother insisted I take World History and other academic subjects for my electives, even though certain non-academic and more fun subjects would have counted towards graduation equally. Was she within her rights to do that? Or should I have been allowed to choose?
As I said, the point of CCD is to give an understanding and meaning to the practice of the religion. I certainly think it would be foolish & pointless to make a kid practice a religion and not try to at least explain it to him.
And, no, we were not demonstrative in any way about praying at home. We never said grace (and I still don’t). My parents are very reserved about religion, and discussions of it usually are more of a theological bent than a personal, spiritual one. Which is not to say that we did not identify strongly as Catholic, but it was not an everyday kind of practice in our home. Not sure that makes a difference, anyway, since much of that is more cultural than anything else.
I was never told that I couldn’t explore, or think differently from my parents. The only thing I remember my mother saying was that she always felt that Catholicism made more sense than Protestantism, because the Catholic Church had a direct line from Jesus & Peter to the present, while the Protestant churches were started by men, and deviated from that line. Other than that, going to church was just what we did, and they led by example in that area.
My point about what you taught your son is that you were the biggest influence in his life. If you made your disbelief in God perfectly clear, I don’t think it’s any small coincidence that he also does not believe…no matter what exposure he had from other people. I apologize for saying that you don’t care in such a fashion…what I was trying to say was that you are starting from a place that god doesn’t exist, so religion per se has no meaning to you. Religion is not something that is taught easily from a very objective, academic point of view. Lots of people take comparative religion classes, and academically, they are very interesting. I wouldn’t say that they give students the essence of religion, though…that has to come from within.
I realize that all people make moral and ethical choices, and I have never said in any thread on this board that I believe that religious people have some kind of lock on these things. And I agree that joy and comfort can be found in lots of places…but you never taught your son that they can be found in religion, and that it is a different sort of joy & comfort that can be found elsewhere. If he was not going to learn that from a parent, where do you think he would have picked it up?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with your choices. I just don’t think they are all that different from mine, that’s all. We each have a worldview, and no matter how open-minded we think we are, we certainly train our children up in that worldview. Each of us does this, and to declare one more ethical than another is, in my opinion, rather short-sighted and judgemental.
OK…let’s assume in my little story that, at the age of 10 or so, she doesn’t have the sophistication to have a problem with the content. If she does, I will probably get her in some college theology courses, because she is WAY smarter than I am assuming she will turn out to be. Let her argue with her professor, because I am sure I won’t be able to keep up with her.
Which they are only doing because they are different religions. If they were both Jewish, I’m sure the kid would be going to Hebrew school (you didn’t say they were teaching them “all” religions, you said they were teaching them “both” religions…there are a few more options out there.)
And I think the issue is not quite so black-and-white.
Well, I wouldn’t leave a 10 year old (at least not MY 10-year-old) home alone, so it wouldn’t be an issue at that age…he would have come with me. However, if he didn’t want to kneel when they said to, if he didn’t want to recite or sing or what have you, I wouldn’t push it. He’d have to just sit there or hang out in the crying room taking care of the little ones.
That’s why I said it’s not perfect.
I agree for the most part, we appear to be at least in the same chapter, if not on the same page. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one point. I think that in matters of faith, it should be arrived at without prejudice.
That’s fine. What I think is funny is that I have spent A LOT of time in church over my life, but I have never seen a 10-year-old protest over kneeling, or anything else you are supposed to do while you are there. They may be bored, and act bored…but the protest is usually about going in the first place, not about what happens while they are there. This is why I think a 10-year-old’s objections are more about what they would rather be doing than any religious problems they have. Once they are there, they tend to go along with the program, not stand in the back with their arms crossed in protest of what they are hearing.
My point was that they are doing what seems right from THEIR perspective, just as you do, and just as I do. We all have a different perspective, based on our beliefs and situation.
I’m not sure exactly what we agree and disagree on, but IMO, no one arrives at anything without prejudice! We all have preconceived notions, and for better or worse, we tend to pass them on to our kids. As you yourself pointed out, it’s not that you don’t care…you have deeply held convictions of your own. I doubt this has given your son a neutral place to start from. I KNOW the place my kids will start from is not neutral, but I just don’t happen to think that’s necessarily a bad thing.
I agree that most parents aren’t intentionally doing their children a disservice, but the end result is more prejudiced than allowing them to explore it on their own.
More prejudiced than telling a child they believe there is no god at all? How so?
Infinitely moreso. You say not only is there a god, but that this is the flavor of god that I want you to learn about. I say I don’t THINK there’s a god, but you’re welcome to investigate the gajillion ways people worship, and I’ll assist you in any of those pursuits…all you have to do is ask.
And if he doesn’t ask…he gets nothing, except your opinion that there isn’t a god. If my child asks, I will likewise let her investigate the gajillion ways people worship. If she doesn’t ask…she gets nothing, except my opinion that there is a god, and that I worship him a particular way. So…how is mine infinitely more prejudiced, again?
No, he participates in discussions about religion all the time. My dad is agnostic (so was my mom). The concept of a higher power has always been a subject of discussion in our home. In addition to that he gets my opinion. He’s not forced to accept (or go through the motions of) any flavor of religion. He knew that if he wanted to pursue a religion…any religion…I would have helped him with that personal goal without having to explain himself. It’s his business. Your children are catholic whether they want to be or not (assuming they were christened as infants…correct me if I’m wrong). That automatically dismisses all the other choices. The indoctrination has already begun and they don’t even know what a church is! My son’s religious choices are his own…as it should be.
Interesting that there are at least 3 generations of non-believers in your family. Would you care to share what religions have been explored?
Accepting is very different from going through the motions…how do you think I will force my kids to accept my religion? Is any form of teaching a religion “forcing to accept” in your mind? I know many, many people who were raised in one religion and became another, or believe in god but don’t follow a religion, or kind of just drifted away from god & religion completely. How many people do you think take the other path? Starting from a foundation of agnosticism, say, and end up finding a religion? My feeling about it is that it is better to start with a foundation of something, so that there can be a basic understanding of what it means. Beleive me, it can be dismissed later, and often is.
You would have NO discussions with him about it, where he got the idea, and try to determine how serious he was about it and why?
At what age do you think that a child would typically become interested in exploring religion? And let me ask the same question I asked before that I don’t think you really answered…what other activites should children not be forced to be a part of, because they have the right to make their own choices, and at what age? And if baptizing an infant automatically dismisses all other choices, how do you explain my friend who was baptized Catholic and is not Jewish? She must have had some choice somewhere down the line.
One more question, Kalhoun…do you not consider the humanist philosophy you raised your child with to be “indoctrination?” And if not, why? And what would you think if he rejected it completely for a religion (assuming that the two can be mutually exclusive, which many people seem to believe)?