Is indoctrinating your religion to your children moral?

Great Debates
1

I did a search, honest. I would’ve thought this subject was covered - and it probably has been, but I couldn’t find anything under the topic. So here we go.

Religions tend to propogate by passing them down through the generations. Children learn their religion early on, at a very impressionable stage, and naturally will tend to cling to the beliefs that their parents will impose on them, if immerged in them.

Now, from the perspective of the parent, they tend to truly believe that their religion is The True Religion, and so by indoctrinating their children, they’re simply teaching them the right way and are going to get them into heaven.

But… if you submerge a child, intentionally, with doctrine and dogma, they’ll always have subconcious leanings towards this religion, even if they openly reject it. I still pray to the Christian God mentally sometimes, and get paranoid about Christian hell, even though I’m pretty much a light atheist. And my parent(s) weren’t even very religious.

So… is it moral to force (or steer towards, if that sounds harsh) your children to conform to your religious doctrine from birth, almost negating their free choice on the issue?

2

Problem is - it’s a command:

Deuteronomy 11:18-19

Ephesians 6:4

So, in my system of morality, passing on my system of morality to my children is commanded by my God - therefore, by definition, it is moral, since God is the source of morality…

Your system of morality is a different question - and that’s one for you to work out for yourself…

Gp

3

We don’t use the word “indoctrinating”. We prefer the word “teaching”. :wink:

You tell me:
[ul]
[li]Is it moral to steer your children towards fastening their seat belts from birth, almost negating their free choice on the issue?[/li][li]Is it moral to steer your children towards being polite to other people from birth, almost negating their free choice on the issue?[/li][li]Is it moral to steer your children towards good habits of personal hygiene from birth, almost negating their free choice on the issue?[/li][li]Is it moral to steer your children towards good homework and study habits from birth, almost negating their free choice on the issue?[/li][li]Is it moral to steer your children towards making nutritious food choices from birth, almost negating their free choice on the issue?[/li][li]Is it moral to steer your children towards being wary of strangers from birth, almost negating their free choice on the issue?[/li][/ul]
If all of these constitute a reprehensible erosion of children’s rights not to learn, then I guess bring on the handcuffs, I’m guilty as charged. We “teach” (not “indoctrinate”) our children our moral values, the same way we “teach” them our dietary, courtesy, seat belt, and reading habits.

The Better Half is fond of parodying the “let the kid choose for himself when he’s grown up” mindset by saying, “We won’t teach our kids what’s good to eat and what’s poisonous–we’ll let them choose for themselves when they’re grown up.”

I might also point out that the underlying assumption of the OP, that once children are “indoctrinated” into a certain doctrine or dogma, they are “locked in” forever, is 100% untrue. Just ask any parent with a child who was raised in “the church”–any church–but who later converted to another faith. Protestants become Catholics, Catholics join the Baptist Church, Christians convert to Judaism, Jews accept Christ, the Methodist preacher’s kid becomes a Muslim, and born-and-raised Muslims become Buddhists.

And Buddhists convert to Judaism, and Christianity, and Islam.

And a certain percentage of children who were raised in all of these churches turn out to choose “atheism” for themselves.

4

I hate to break it to you, not only is this how religion is passed on, but also all things that make up human culture. Kids also learn how to speak, how to eat and how to deal with people by watching their parents.

So what if your parents were not religious? Having children can make people think about religion in a way that they haven’t thought in years. My sister wasn’t very religious until she had kids, then she started keeping kosher and observing the sabbath.

How are you negating free will? You yourself say you lean towards atheism. If you didn’t freely decide to give up on religion who decided for you? Is it moral? Since religion is generally about morals and structure it is not bad, IMHO, to teach kids religion because religion offers a moral background that the kids will keep with them.

Religion offers a community and common ground for the people who share the religion. Religion is also about heritage and tradition. These are the sorts of things that many parents wish to impart to their children.
grimpixie says

It may be a command in your religion, but it also happens in religions that don’t “command” it. Passing on culture is one of the few universal human characteristics.

5

**

Right, but that doesn’t make it right for you to teach your child to “Hate those damn niggers”, right?

**

Not sure what you’re trying to say… I was trying to state that even though I only had mildly religious parents, I still had the whole Christianity thing deeply implanted into my subconcious.

**

I meant to say that after growing up and analyzing things rationally, I ‘rationally’ tend to be athiest. But I still can’t “outgrow” my Christian leanings. They’re deeply implanted into my subconcious - so I’ll start praying to the Christian god right before a car accident, ect.

**

That makes sense.

6

I think this has hit it right on the head. I’m as confident in my religious beliefs (athiesm) as I am in the necessity of seat belts. There’s no way I’d let my children out into the world without trying to protect them from the predations of religion. To do so would be reprehensible. Presumably those who have different religious beliefs (misguided tho’ they may be) feel the same way.

–Cliffy

7

As Cliffy just stated, DDG hit the nail on the head. It is the unavoidable role of parents to teach their children how to behave, what to believe, etc. It’s not an issue of religion, but rather an issue of education. In what way is bringing up a child in a certain faith any different than any of the other scenarios DDG lists?

And, if a parent cannot bring up his/her child acording to a certain faith, then what about influences from other people? Depriving a parent of his/her ability to mold a child in his/her image (to a point) begs the question, “whose image will the child be molded in?” The neighbors’? The media’s? You certainly cannot isolate children from all opinions about things until they are old enough to figure it out for themselves.

8

**

Now you are asking me to make a moral judgement. IMO, it is wrong to teach hatred of any sort. I’m not going to say that this process isn’t abused, because it is. I am only mentioning the mechanism by which all culture and traditions are passed on, for better or for worse. While there may be hatred that gets passed on, there is also compassion - they are 2 sides of the same coin. All things considered, the world isn’t all that bad for most of us here.

**

Perhaps you are not as atheistic as you believe yourself to be. People do change religions and don’t think twice about it. If a person were to change religion and was serious about it, I would WAG that they wouldn’t give their old religion much thought.

9

I see it as my duty to teach my children the things they need to function as children, and to at least provide a foundation for them to grow into adults. Even the non-religious teach their children that it is wrong to kill. Legal issues aside, it is just wrong. Some people teach their children that it is wrong to eat meat, whether for religious reasons on health/nature reasons. In each case, the parents believe something, and want to teach it to their children so their children will grow into productive, happy members of the community.

Many dopers here were raised Catholic, but do not consider themselves as such any more. They still feel a sense of community with the church, and familiarity with all things Catholic. The same is true, even moreso with Jews. Even a person who never attends synogogue or prays any more, might still consider himself culturally a Jew.

I believe that it is wrong to hurt other people. I therefore must endeavor to teach my child that it is wrong to hurt other people. I believe in God and Jesus and all that stuff, so I therefore must endeavor to teach my child that it is proper to believe in God and Jesus, et al.

Unfortunately, people who believe that certain races or people are inferior, do believe that it is their duty to teach their children the same thing.

hijack
I have been reading about the orphanages in Afghanistan not having sufficient resources for their wards. If I were to adopt an Afghan child, I would feel it is my duty to teach that child to embrace his Afghan identity. I am torn on how I would feel about teaching him about Islam. Should I send the child to mosque with another Muslim family? Should I go both to church and mosque with the child?
/hijack

10

No, it’s simply socially acceptable brainwashing. The only moral way to go about introducing your child to religion is to introduce him or her to every single religion, spending equal time and energy on all of them. Few, if any parents ever do this (I’m sure someone will jump in and say “ooh my parents did that with me” to skew my statement - but they are rare).

I think it is cruel and immoral to intentionally brainwash a child… but that’s just my opinion. Someone will say that every time you teach a child something you are brainwashing them, but there’s clearly a difference between telling your child 1 + 1 = 2 and that if the child doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ he will burn in hell forever and ever. Just my opinion, of course. I say let kids discover and fulfill their own spiritual needs, if they in fact have any. Children are impressionable and will take whatever their parents say as true. As you pointed out, parents who do this remove any free choice their child has. How can that be moral? Unless, of course, you “Know” that your “Choice” (the one your parents brainwashed you with) is the “Right Choice.” Then it’s obviously the only moral thing to do… sigh

11

No, DDG most certainly did not hit anything on the head.

The majority of his/her (sorry) examples involve health and safety:
seatbelts, hygiene, nutrition, waryiness of strangers. Your spouse truly cannot distinguish between the desirability of avoiding of death through poisoning, and the acceptance of a particular religion? Bad analogy, as amusing as you and your spouse may find it.

The others are a little closer to religion/philosophy, but I would still distinguish education - the desire that your child expand his/her horizons and lifestyle options, and good manners, generally considered beneficial to living in society.

Belief in a deity, not to mention a particular deity, is not necessary to peaceful coexistence in society. Nor is it proven beneficial, as is the value of nutrition. (One possible exception, I recall studies suggesting health benefits associated with active participation in organized religion. IIRC, this was attributed to the support and comfort one gets from support and affirmation, not the particular beliefs involved. Similar benefits may be observed in rotarians, etc.)

In the context of this discussion, I consider religions to be more similar to personal preferences and biases. People differ in the manner and to the extent they teach their kids about such things as ecology, civil liberties, and honesty.

I do not believe you can make universal moral judgment of my decision whether I teach my kid there is a god, a particular manifestation of God, or that the supernatural is bunk. You may be able to express such judgments about such “personal preferences” are racial tolerance/intolerance. But is it “moral” for a parent to teach his kid that the Republican party is mistaken? Or that the DH rule is an abomination?

It is very hard to make morality judgments about religions/philosophies other than your own. Do the Taliban consider themselves immoral for teaching their beliefs to their children? How about ultra-orthodox jews? Or catholics who prohibit women from the priesthood and denouce gays? How about wiccans, pagans, or atheists? Or Amish who deny their kids nintendo?

I would probably make an exception for the group that forbids invasive medical treatiment, or a group that engages in ritualistic behavior (exorcisms, etc) thhat sound like child abuse. I have no hesitation condemning such things. But I believe those are the exception rather than the rule.

I think it is natural for parents to wish that, in some respects, their kids take after them. It is also natural for parents to try to share their acquired “knowledge” with their kids. That doesn’t mean they will love their children any less should they end up thinking differently when they grow up.

So is it moral for parents to teach their religion to their kids? Of course. Because just about whatever they teach, some day that kid will grow up and be thrust into the great big world, and will be able to make up their mind for themself.

12

I think that you are missing one major point: religion along with good hygiene and proper nutrition are all learned behaviours.

13

So religious education necessarily has much in common with all non-instinctual development of humans? Balderdash.

Is it moral to teach your children to look both ways before crossing the street?

Is it moral to teach your childre ballroom dancing, or which fork to use?

Is is moral to teach your child that black people are subhuman?

If you cannot distinguish between those, I’m not sure how to convince you.

Some are directly related to foreseeable results, such as eating your veggies and looking both ways before crossing lead to living a long and healthy life. Others, such as table manners, are merely social convention, over which there is little disagreement. Hygiene probably fits into both categories.

Please be so kind as to show me the proven benefit derived from religious belief, other than those that come from membership in any group? And I doubt many believers would consider their faith a mere “social convention.”

I will acknowledge that I consider it moral to teach children most religions I am familiar with, because most religions advocate what is commonly thought of as desirable social behavior. Love your neighbor, don’t cheat steal or kill, etc. I can even see how it is effective to wrap these moral messages up in a fairy tale to make them more persuasive. Parables are an effective tool for teaching the young. I do not consider Bennett’s Book of Virtues to be all bad.

However, should someone teach their kids that their unproven belief in the supernatural phenomena is unquestionably correct, and that they are better for believing than all of the mistaken people who disagree with them, IMO they may have crossed over a line.

14

It’s either wrong for a woman to appear in public without her head covered or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then it’s wrong for Muslim parents to reaise their children believing that is, and if it is, then it’s wrong for non-Muslim parents to raise their children believing that it isn’t.

In either case, somebody’s raising their children wrong.

15

Children pick up moral values from their parents and caregivers, no matter whether the parents or caregivers may be making conscious efforts to avoid “indoctrinating” their children in the tenets of any one belief system. The biggest moral values question out there is, “Is there a God?” Sooner or later, every kid asks this, and gets an answer from someone he trusts, which answer he files away in his mental filing cabinets under “Important Questions Answered”. Now, later on in adult life, he may find reason to take this answer out and look at it again, but for the first 15 years of his life, what’s in the “Important Questions Answered” file is sufficient.

So, one way or another, every child out there is going to be “indoctrinated” in this very basic moral value in one of three ways–the answer to his question will be either “There is a God”, or “There is no God”, or “There may be a God”. There aren’t any other alternatives.

16

And, since the ugly word “brainwashing” has appeared, as it seems it inevitably must whenever the issue of organized religion comes up… :rolleyes: …I will point out that the dictionary definition of “brainwashing” cannot be taken to apply to children.

From Merriam-Webster, online.

Teaching a child that there either is, or isn’t, a God, is obviously (to me, at least) not the same thing as forcibly inducing him to give up a pre-existing religious belief and to accept a contrasting regimented idea. A child of six who asks, “Mommy, where does God live?” is not being forced to give up any pre-existing religious beliefs by my answer. He doesn’t have any pre-existing religious beliefs. If I tell him, “God lives up in Heaven,” he merely files that away. If I tell him, “There’s no such thing as God”, he merely files that away, too. It doesn’t replace another belief–it fills in a blank space where there wasn’t any belief.

And as for Definition #2, “persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship”, well, pfui. A parent doesn’t have to “sell” the idea of God, or Not-God, to a child, any more than a parent has to “sell” the idea of the importance of brushing one’s teeth–at least, not if the parent is doing his job right. A parent simply informs the child, “Teeth are brushed at bedtime,” the same way that a parent informs the child, “There is a God”, or “There is no such thing as God.”

17

Dinsdale, you are still missing the point.

Like I said in an earlier post, I am not going to make moral judgements, I am only mentioning the mechanism by which things like hygiene and religion are passed onto children.

Also, if you can’t see the similarities (ie, none of the things mentioned are required for survival) than I doubt I’d be able to convince you. Better yet, let me ask you this - are you suggesting that some forms of knowledge (religious or knowing what fork to use) exist a priori in humans?

18

Not at all, IMHO. I would say the biggest moral values question out there is, “What is good, and should I do good?” Belief or disbelief in God, per se, has does not necessarily have any effect on morals. Morality re a belief in God only comes in when you decide what God wants (if he/she/it exists) and whether you should try to do what God wants.

I don’t beleive I ever asked this. :smiley: Seriously, I didn’t.

Or the subject can never really come up, like it did with me, or at least not in a way where anyone told me God did or did not exist. I knew my grandmother believed in God. I didn’t know if my mother did or not until my mid teens, when she said she was a Deist. Still don’t know about Da, but he’s much less talkative since his cremation. :smiley: But no one in my family, ever, told me God did, did not, or might exist. I guess they believed or they did not believe, but they did not feel they had the right to tell me what was Truth on this subject.

19

I hope I was not the person to use the word brainwashing. If so, I apologize. I do not believe it is appropriate for most religious teaching of children I am aware of.

Indoctrination also carries some connotations. But I think much of what I have experienced might have some degree of something more than is adequately expressed by the word “teaching.”

Minor possible nitpick concerning your example of definition 1 for brainwashing: I wonder if a child would ask “where does God live” if he/she had not previously been provided explicit or implicit “evidence” of a deity. If a child were raised in a supportive loving family, where the supernatural were never mentioned, would they develop their individual belief in a supreme being?

IME, I am not at all convinced that a belief in a deity is inherent in all infants/children. My children are all disbelievers, simply because rational explanations make more sense to them than a god. When they were younger, we had fun with the easter bunny and santa, and they enjoy ghost stories and the like. But at some age they realized that they were pretend and unneccessary.

They are aware of many different religions. I feel such knowledge is neccessary to understand much of history and personal motivation. But whenever they asked me my opinions, I told them that I do not believe in the supernatural.

I am certainly not aware of having to go to any lengths to disavow them of their natural instinct. Of course, they did not have the benefit/detriment of being taken to a church where beliefs in the supernatural are espoused, instructed in saying their prayers, etc.

When the grow older, they may change their minds. I will not love them any less, unless they change to a point at which they become excessively judgmental and intolerant.

20

adam yax
I certainly agree with you that many many if not most behaviors and beliefs are taught rather than instinctual or inherent.

The distinction I was trying to draw was that I do not consider it meaningful to discuss all learned behavior in terms of morality.

In any event, you and I seem to be talking past each other to some extent, and I’m not certain that resolution of our mutual miscommunication is necessary to the OP (or of any great interest to me.)