Chimera is a social justice warrior

Hi Spice,
Thanks for your thoughtful response (as always).
Hate groups towards non-whites have tripled since 2015. Over 900 hate bias crimes within 10 days of the election.

I think this again references what Leaper was talking about. To me and mine, those of us who can’t change our skin color or those of us who can’t hide our immigrant marker behind white skin, we’ve already reached the point where violence is being threatened to us. I know that Nazis got (deservedly) a lot of attention last week and it was not something I’d ever see in the US now but the white supremacists aren’t any better. Openly marching with guns, shouting about replacing folks has already normalized violence and changed the conversation. Concern about blaming other groups for “galvanizing” the right sounds pointless after last week. Don’t you think that they are already there? Those folks are already extremists and have already selected anyone who is non-white, Christian as their enemies.

Good point. So given the fact that you are being targeted right now, Amara, what actions do you need to see taken?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Sorry I posted too soon. In your view, what can and should allies be doing right now in response to this ugliness? Because I think some of these conversations are often driven by people with no skin in the game, and I think we can only get so far with that.

A lot of my work thus far (I’m a macro social worker) has been doing things like striving to make our programming more culturally competent and for our organizational culture to be more racially inclusive, but this is like a whole different level of racism than I’m used to working with.

Do you want to see more presence at these counterprotests?

Yes. It’s important to me, not speaking for anyone else in a target group, to see this speech condemned by allies. The peaceful rallies in cities across the US have greatly helped.

I genuinely don’t understand how people can march with body armor and weapons to the point where the police are saying that the protesters are better equipped than they are and this be viewed as “free speech” instead of intimidation. In Boston today, no weapons or items that could be used as weapons were allowed. I fully support this for anyone. If the white supremacists are allowed to march with weapons then I’m really conflicted about counter-protesters since I don’t want anyone to be hurt but I also strongly don’t agree with intimidation.

It is also important for me to see that people understand that free speech advocating genocide, whether openly or using symbols that mean the same thing, may be legal but the implicit threat be both recognized and shouted down at every opportunity.

Don’t think that this level of racism is new; it’s just more open and tolerated.

I just read that 15,000 showed up counterprotesting in Boston vs a few dozen who organized the free speech rally. They are going to spin it as 15,000 opposed to free speech but I think sensible people know it’s in direct response to terrorism in Charlottesville and the White House’s failure to lead on issues of racial equality. Fortunately it appears there was very little violence this time.

And everyone else can see that no-one rejects them.

“Giving them publicity” seems a little silly. Their purpose, in holding rallies, is to create publicity - for insiders, to promote their ideals and show their strength, and for outsiders, to fear the same. In a theoretical world in which Nazis march down the main street of a town and no media groups cover it, no bloggers give it the time of day, no random person on twitter puts up a video of “Nazis marching here WTF”, a theoretical world in which there is zero attention paid to them, there are two outcomes. One, they themselves will get to cover it entirely, pushing only their story on supporters and potential supporters. And two, any person that’s the typical target for such groups will get to be intimidated and see zero support.

What’s a “misguided redneck” in this context?

I have to admit, I’m unconvinced about the “just passing through” possibility. Approaching a mob so close as to be part of it without noticing it’s going on until you’re IN it sounds tricky. Although I suppose it would in theory be easier if everyone’s trying to pay the mob no attention.

I imagine it would depend on what the story is about Mr Hilter in that paper. I can’t imagine a context in which I would firebomb his house (that is to say, any context which I could imagine ever doing such a thing to someone would involve such a change of situation generally as to make the question moot). Punching the guy in the face repeatedly is possible, but very unlikely.

If he is an “actual Nazi”, then he by default has something to do with me; he very likely wishes to kill me. Even if I escaped his attentions in that way, he wishes to kill many people I know, and many more that I do not know. That he has “never bothered me” seems like a conceit of the question; it’s hard to imagine that an actual Nazi would at no time cause any kind of problems or react negatively to me or to people around me in any way. I think, in fact, that would probably result in my initial response; “Hey, Mr. Hilter, there’s this article about you in the paper, but I’m confused, as you’ve never gone out to bother me. What’s the story there?”

Shucks, I was just walkin through this town that I don’t live in and that I drove 3 hours to get to, and goldurn if it warn’t on the same day as those god-bless-america nazis were having a free speech rally.

Someone who’s going along because their pal Bubba Joe is going along and there’ll be some drinkin’ and maybe a chance to beat up a few leftie tree-huggers too. Not a noble goal but not “Genocide advocation” either.

“What’s the commotion over there? Is it a celebrity? Is there free stuff being given away? Better go and have a look. Oh dear, it’s Nazis. Nope, don’t want any of that but now I’m just trying to extricate myself.”

For the purposes of this hypothetical, let’s assume he’s not the subject of the story, but has been photographed at a Nazi Rally and the editor has decided the photograph is powerful enough to warrant being on the front page.

Me and Mr. Hilter would be having a long-ass conversation.

And this is the problem I personally have lately with your arguments. You seem to be embracing disingenuous tactics from the Right as actually true.

I’m sure there is a small group of people on the left who believe what you say. But it is far, far overblown. What group of people are proclaiming violence is the solution for “any conflict”? Not even anarchists believe that. Who says that doxxing is acceptable for “anything we don’t like”? Hell, who calls themselves the “radical left,” a clear reference to “radical Muslims”?

These are all ideas as framed by the right wing. They’re all exaggerations at best of real issues. Even your “ruining lives” is not what happened with the taco cart thing, and it wasn’t as simple as “making burritos is cultural appropriation.” They actually admit to peaking in and stealing the techniques.

I get that you encountered some of the people that the right wing likes to make fun of back on your Facebook. But that doesn’t make the right wing way of looking at all this 100% accurate. It doesn’t even mean these people are typical liberals or typical of the social justice movement. I’ve literally never encountered people like you describe in my travels in these sorts of online areas.

As for your question: can you support one thing in this particular circumstance but not in other circumstances? Of course! I am not pro-doxxing in general. Heck, I could even argue this isn’t even doxxing, since these are people out in public protesting. There’s no privacy concern here. And it most definitely is not about just things we disagree with–I hate that euphemism so fucking much.

I don’t support everything that happens just because it’s on the left. I do, however, try to understand why they believe the way they do, and identify where exactly they are going wrong. For example: your story in another thread about the lady saying she wishes there wasn’t racism in her game. Sure, that’s fine. But then the idea that you were disagreeing because you were white was dumb. And the underlying meaning of “you just don’t have a problem with it because you’re privileged not to have faced racism” is wrong because she is also exactly as privileged. (And kinda racist if she does the whole Native American ancestry thing.) Still, if she wants to have fantasy escapism that gets away from the racism she sees everyday, that’s fine.

I don’t hate her for it or anything. I don’t think she’s a horrible person. She’s just naive, and argued something stupid. Unfortunately, the alt-right is more than just stupid, but wrong at the fundamental level. There is a difference, and a need to focus our ire on the side that is actually worse. That’s why I deny the importance of SJW stuff, and do everything I can to argue against the concept as being anything coherent.

Point is, my embracing the left and denying the concept of the radical SJW left doesn’t make me have to embrace everything. In the same way, you can embrace tactics in specific instances.

(I mean, I got banned from a webcomic because it pissed me off how many times people kept making excuses for an awful, manipulative, vindictive person willing to harm anyone as long as she got what they wanted just because she was on the left and a pet theory that maybe how they dress means they are trans. And I finally snapped and did a Pit-style rant over it after I saw them getting away with the same against those who disagreed. I do not ignore that you can be an awful person and be on the left. And that was just a webcomic, not real life.)

BigT, I’ll respond as thoughtfully as possible tonight. I’m technically on vacation. Whee.

And this morning someone responded to me elsewhere with a big rant about George Soros, a billionaire, funding the left.

I pointed out that the right is funded by the Koch brothers and Rupert Murdoch, also billionaires.

Dumb, dumb people.

I’d really like to know how to get ahold of some of this funding that Soros is always giving out to the left.

By that time, that someone needed to get better friends than Bubba Joe.

You are talking indeed about the warning signals coming many times before from people that do not want to see extremist radical ideologies grow. I know that it is hard and it is much easier to attempt to counter the opinion of people that remind you of the need of not going along or telling your buddies or family members to cut that out. I have pointed many times before in the SDMB that I do understand that that would lead to being kicked out of several Republican or conservative islands, but I have to point out that until recently the Republicans did not had a Nazi apologist on the white house and also a base that does love what authoritarians past and present did.

So as I also said before: I know it is hard and friends and even family can be lost, but seeing all the people protesting in the open against bad people, seeing the industrialists against the bad people, and seeing most of the Republican leadership also against the bad people, the point is that you can indeed find a bigger support group and better friends than Bubba Joe.

On another subject: What I do see with the efforts of many here that try to tell us that “we should not mind the Nazis” or that “they can do it because they have the freedom of speech” should not ignore indeed that others do have the freedom of speech to tell them that they are idiots and evil. The problem here is that I see in those efforts to ignore the Nazis and slavery supporters is that there is an almost gleeful avoidance that the ones countering the Nazis and confederacy followers also have the right to do so with their speech.

There should be no need for the following: but as I encountered in discussions against posters that refuse to acknowledge that most Muslims are not supporting violence, many on the right are not bright enough to realize that when I and many others point things like that that we also do condemn terrorism, doxxing and violence to prevent freedom of speech.

Other than the banking information, is any of that actually illegal?

Maybe it’s saying you aren’t a Good Guy but a Nice Guy.

I am going to do my best to explain my position, and then I’m going away from the internet for six days, but I will read your response, if you have one, next weekend. I’m going to ask you to put aside your knee-jerk ‘‘she’s drawing a false equivalency’’ stance, and whatever other biases you have, and listen to what I’m actually saying.

The left, including people of color and other minorities, are currently in a very disempowered and precarious position in the United States. We don’t have control over the dominant narrative, we don’t have control over policy, we don’t even have any clear leadership or strategy for dealing wth the seriousness of this situation. We are fucked.

Antifa is a small but growing resistance group that, like Anonymous, uses guerilla-style tactics to achieve its ends. It spawned out of a group of people recognizing the seriousness of our situation and deciding that traditional venues for redressing injustice are not currently open to oppressed people in the United States. They aren’t organized. They aren’t strategizing. There is no central base of ‘‘Antifa’’ operations. This means that people who identify with this growing movement can basically do anything terrible of their own volition and the left is going to be blamed for it.

The people in power, their entire purpose is to discredit and demonize the left. The right-wing media, its entire purpose is to discredit and demonize the left. They will jump on anything, and I do mean anything, to achieve this purpose. We have 27 arrests out of 15,000 counter-protesters, and the rightstream media gives us an anecdote about how some old lady got her flag stolen and was knocked down, ergo this protest was really, secretly violent. Notice how all the commenters see this as evidence of liberal fascism.

Now you may see this as not the left’s problem. It’s not our fault. We are being smeared and treated unfairly. And you are correct. The people who engage in extremist behavior are a very small minority of leftists. But that doesn’t change the reality of our situation, which is that we are not ideologically united, we have no leadership, we have no power, we have no strategy, and we don’t control the media narrative. So rather than bitching about how unfair that is, I would prefer that we look honestly at the reality of our situation and strategize from there.

I can’t imagine what it would like to be a person of color in the United States right now, and I won’t try. But what I understand, fundamentally and instinctively, is how rural and suburban white people think. I particularly understand how rural and suburban white racists think because I was surrounded by that shit growing up. I come from an old-school working-class trailer-park-living white rural background. Not that the average white racist would wave a Nazi flag and cheer genocide, no, racism is a natural part of their culture but not a huge part of their identity. They would mostly bitch about (actual complaints I hear) ‘‘reverse racism’’ in the grocery store, black people using the community pool and getting their hair gunk in it, and black people ruining their grandchild’s basketball team since they always get in so much trouble that everyone is benched. These are people who would listen to Christopher Cantwell bitch about ‘‘black assholes’’ getting away with criminal behavior all the time, and think, ‘‘Well I would never support genocide, but he does kind of have a point. Political correctness has gone too far these days.’’ These people exist in a much larger quantity than white supremacists. These people are in the White House, the Congress, and running the rightstream media. Currently they are the ones shaping the national narrative.

Which brings us back to Antifa, the right’s current bogeyman. If you could boil the current conflict down into one point, it’s that people really want the ethical permission to punch Nazis. And you know, if someone is calling for the genocide of your people, I can’t blame you for your hate, and think if you fly off the handle at a protest it’s more than a little understandable.

But I think as an accepted, viable strategy it’s a poor idea, for a number of reasons. First, it accomplishes nothing by way of political change. It might be temporarily empowering, but it’s a moment that’s going to be played over and over on the rightstream media, and you know damned well they aren’t going to say, ‘‘this small minority of people physically attacked this man for trying to speak his mind.’’ No. They will claim that this is all the left’s fault, that leftists embrace violent, fascist ideology, they will draw comparisons to 1984 and all other kinds of bullshit. And the greater this Antifa movement grows, the more it’s going to be hard to disavow ourselves from their actions in the eyes of the right.

So as a liberal, I personally feel a responsibility to give these lying, hateful fucks on the extreme right no room to to stereotype me into someone who violently oppresses free speech. Not only that, but I feel a responsibility to call out bad behavior on the left, for the same reason. I have never had a problem with calling out bad behavior wherever I see it. I’ve been critical of Obama, Bill Clinton, and many others who supposedly represent me, and I’ll be critical of leftist strategy when it fails, also. The idea that this open criticism is somehow traitorous and bad for liberalism is short-sighted and unfair.

Which brings me to the second problem with Antifa and even some liberal-directed social media campaigns such as making Nazis miserable on the internet. It’s not that it’s an unrighteous cause, it’s that it gives the illusion that we’re creating a solution, a movement, that we’re galvanizing any power at all, when all we’re doing is pissing off a bunch of moderates and right-wingers. It serves to excuse the fact that liberals have no strategy and no leadership, much like ranting on social media, it allows us to delude ourselves that we’re actually doing anything. It feels good, but it serves nothing.

This is not me playing devil’s advocate. This is not me engaging in an intellectual exercise because I lack empathy. It is me trying to use my intelligence in the service of an issue I care very deeply about. A huge part of my education in macro social work was studying the history of social policy and social progress and evaluating the different tactics that have been used over the years. The problem is we aren’t currently using any of those tactics in a strategic, focused way. We have ‘‘flash protests’’ like the one in Boston but there’s good evidence that protests don’t have nearly as much impact on social policy as they used to, because they are so easy to organize and so much a knee-jerk response to the moment that they fail to prove to policy-makers that there is a sustained opposition to any given policy. We have abandoned the wisdom of great strategists like Saul Alinsky, Martin Luther King, Malcom X. Antifa can’t even be compared to the Black Panther Party, because it has no strategy and no organization.

The left has always been reviled by the right, but we’ve never been in such a vulnerable position with a populist President who favors using violent and biased rhetoric against his opposition. He’s scary unpredictable and the people he places into his administration are all motivated by different goals, each terrible in their own way. As such, we must tread very carefully. The more reactionary our response, the more violence will escalate, and the more we will be seen as the enemy. And ultimately, the less power we will have to redress racial and other types of social injustice in this country. I want to prevent war in this country, not only because I abhor violence, but because those of us on the side of social justice are going to lose. And if we lose, people of color lose. LGBTQ people lose. Women lose.

So you don’t see a problem because you see the left is doing the righteous thing. Doing the righteous thing is all well and fine, but the righteous thing does not necessarily mean the best, most effective thing. In some cases it makes things worse. When it comes to social change, I am interested not in what feels the most vindicating, but in what actually works to improve the lives of people who are oppressed.

I have never, at any time, claimed that Antifa or even annoying people on my Facebook feed represented the majority of liberals in the US, or even a significant percentage of them. Enough exist to concern me, and I have good reasons for publicly expressing those concerns, not because I ‘‘buy into the right wing narrative’’ but because I’m trying to fight against it. Every time you minimize the negative impact of any particular left-winger’s actions, you feed into their narrative that we are wiling to excuse terrible things. When you say, ‘‘oh, well it’s not like anyone’s life was ruined,’’ that’s minimizing someone’s real and unfairly inflicted pain.

I am not perfect. I don’t claim to know everything. I’m still trying to work out a lot of my thoughts on this, particularly as it pertains to what’s going on in Charlottesville. Maybe it would behoove me to be more careful about how I phrase certain types of criticism on the left. But it is extremely frustrating to me when you cast aspersions on my motives, when it is literally my fucking job to change oppressive systems. As in, I get paid to do it. I studied the history of social change and strategies for systemic change in graduate school, I earned a Master’s degree in Macro Social Work from one of the top-ranked programs in the country, a humble little building that is ironically buttressing the Wharton School of Business that Trump so enthusiastically hails. After I graduated, I attended the Center for Progressive Leadership in Philadelphia, and one of the major subjects of that program was the power of storytelling and narrative. I don’t have nearly as much expertise on this subject as a lot of my colleagues do, since I currently work with smaller systems (nonprofits and the surrounding community) but I have enough of a solid overview, from community organizing to lobbying, to understand that all successful efforts for social change require a sustained, long-term, organized strategy with clearly visible leadership. Liberals sounding off on the internet may be good, but they are chaotic good, occasional sputters of feel-good actions and righteous outrage that are too easily distorted and smeared by the right. What we need to make any headway with this administration is lawful good.

Now, everyone in my field may not agree with me. There are probably people I know who could give me an ideological run for my money. If you had a reasoned response to my criticism that was grounded in a firm understanding of what it takes to change oppressive systems, I’d probably respond quite differently to your criticisms. Your passion is admirable, but we seem to be thinking on very different wavelengths. It’s annoying/hurtful to me when you imply that my thoughts and statements on this matter are little more than a knee-jerk response buying into the right-wing narrative. It couldn’t be further from the truth. I take my work very seriously, and I feel I have an ethical and professional obligation to consider the long-term impact of specific left-wing approaches. This is the stuff that keeps me up at night. I took a six-hour road trip this weekend and that is literally all I talked about on the car ride there and back. I’m not even close to having the answers, but I will be thinking through the questions until the day I die.

See you in six days…

While that’s true in a general sense, it doesn’t change the fact our misguided redneck isn’t actually a Real Nazi™. Obviously attending a Nazi Rally is a terrible idea and pretty much all of us would nope our way out of there at the first sign of a swastika, Klan hood, or other such imagery - but if we’re going to condemn people and flick the safety off in our efforts to punish them for being horrible, let’s make 110% sure we’ve got our facts right.

Also, the “Get better friends” argument is all well and good when it comes to Nazis, but the world doesn’t work like that. Well, sure, it might in the city, but in rural areas where everyone knows everyone it’s easier said than done to break out of the mould. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t say “OK, my best friend is a Nazi, I should rethink whether I want to keep talking to them”, but it’s not as easy as saying “These people are Nazis. I’m going to find a new cafe to frequent, and get a new circle of friends - with blackjack, and hookers!”

If they march with Nazis and salute with Nazis, it is very very reasonable to paint them with the Nazi brush. Further, if your “prototype” Bubba thinks it would be fun to drink beer and beat up librul tree huggers and n***ers with his Nazi buddies, he then deserves whatever treatment he gets from his intended victims. If he sees the flags, hoods, salutes, and swastikas and still thinks it will be fun to go kick the dogshit out of someone with his Nazi buddies, then he gets whatever he gets.

Holy shit, Spice. For the last several weeks, I’ve been trying to figure out how to express my deep reservations with antifa to my fellow leftists, and haven’t been able to do so. This post is perfect. When you come back, do you mind if I quote paragraphs 2-13 on Facebook, attributing it however you’d like?

Thanks for writing this.