Fill in your own expletives. So much for the “new China.” This is pretty much the same old China I grew up with.
It gets worse. I can’t even begin to swear enough.
Y’know, it must be hard being one of the very last communist country on the planet. And what else would you expect? prior to 9-11, the Chinese people were growing tired of communism, and not being able to compete in the marketplace(or anywhere else for that matter), they must take every advantage they can.
The hallmark of communism is mis and dis information…why be so shocked? Besides, they’re still very pissed by a few errant rockets and planes violating their sanctity.
Sam
Can someone fill me in on the general reputation of the site linked to? I did a quick search of some reputable news sites and can’t find the same story on them.
I’ll see if I can find a copy of the DVD. If it is this widespread, I should be able to track it down in Shanghai as soon as I’ve got an hour or two free. One of the HK dopers could find it in an hour in Mong Kok or Causeway Bay. Let’s just say I’m a little skeptical of a) if this was really released, b) has government backing or c) the site is not very reputable.
I got this quote out of the link:
What I read from the link is a tasteless sensationalist vcd produced by pirates to make a quick buck (if it is true). Certainly the cited article is written in a very sensationalist manner. China is not a monolithic communist state. It’s more of a facist government with huge chunks of the economy driven by unbridled capitalism.
If I can find a copy, I’ll watch it and let you know.
That’s cool China, that’d lend a little credibility to the story, since we haven’t heard anything about China since right after the attacks.
Sam
GaWdAs I said, this is pretty much what I expect from China.
reprise As for the source, it seems to be a pretty normal online rag. I do internet searches and stuff pops up, I can’t do deep background on all of it. I am wondering how one knows a source is bad sans evidence.
China Guy Could you source, please, before you jump to the defense of the Chinese government? Sweet irony that they used the “hegemony” language that I said they would on the other thread, n’est pas?
The government calls itself Communist. Sure, they act like fascists, Communists usually do when they have power. The whole Marxist philosophy is based on a “dictatorship of the proletariat” and “seizing” things. I have always felt if you go far enough left or right you circle back to authoritarianism anyway.
I was asking what is known about the source. We have a lot of tabloid media in Australia who have taken great delight in talking things up and scaremongering since September 11 (hell, it sells newspapers and gets TV ratings), often on the basis of unverified reports (or mere speculation).
I find it difficult to believe that if China had issued this statement as reported, it wouldn’t be all over every major, credible news service in the world.
All of our major daytime news shows are on right now and it isn’t showing up. I’m trying to track it through the wires, and it isn’t showing up. If true, it’s a major news story, which justifies a “news flash”.
I’ll keep trying to track it, but for now I remain a little cynical.
BTW - I wouldn’t be at all surprised if China did ultimately take this stance (although aren’t they trying to become part of the WTO right now), just surprised that it’s not being reported in the more mainstream media as yet.
As in n’est “ce” pas.
The story is new. Given its limited general interest I would not hold my breath waiting for MSNBC to break into anthrax and war coverage to comment on a DVD in China.
Why do people want to assume the worst about the U.S., yet try to rationalize for one of the worst human rights abusers on the planet? If a nation will execute political dissenters a little propaganda DVD ain’t no thang. Nothing about the claimed statements is in any way unusual in the long history of Communist China. If fact, it is pretty mainstream. “Hegemony,” “paper tiger,” it’s all there.
Jump to the defense of the Chinese government? Bwahahahahahahahahahaha. Get real. I’ve got plenty of deeply personal reasons to not like the Chinese government. Most of what I try to do on the SDMB is to provide either facts or context when people toss out stuff on China. In this case, we’ve got an on-line “news” source with a sensationalist story. So the first question is how reputable is the source? The story may well be true. I’ve seen hundreds of China “reports” in the same vein and have come to view them with a healthy dose of skepticism rather than swallow them hook-line-and-sinker as fact. Recent SDMB has seen threads on China sending muslim troops to fight for the Taleban and where the Chinese eat babies in China.
There are plenty of things to criticise China about, but most critics tend to read a single article and think they’ve got the facts.
I said I’d try to find the VCD and I will. Seriously, if it is this widespread, I should be able to pick up a copy as soon as I have time to find it. I would even send it to you if I can find it. However, even if it is true, don’t confuse some pirates out trying to make a quick buck with the official Chinese government. Who hasn’t been bombarded with newsbite after newsbite of 9/11 including multiple shots of the plane slamming into the second tower. If you got a CNN 9/11 special on DVD that included some pretty outrageous quotes on “bombing towelheads” does that represent the US governments hegemony or even official view? Of course not, but some people automatically assume anything ascribed to China is the official governmental view straight from Jiang Zemin’s mouth.
China surely isn’t communist. The State Owned Enterprises IIRC make up less than 25% of the economy, and their proportion of the economy continues to shrink. In very many respects, China is one of the most capitalist countries around. You can probably find a higher proportion of Marxists in the US than here in China.
People in the US might see this as “defending the PRC Goverment” (as they did with China Guy), but here goes. I live in Hong Kong and am reasonably exposed to what’s going on in the mainland.
The idea that the PRC Govermnent would put its name to this product is ridiculous. This thing bears all the hallmarks of China’s burgeoning private sector, which increasingly panders to the lowest common denominator tastes of the masses (sounds familiar?).
In China today there are now private sector (and underground) alternatives to official state media (though the two overlap). So on the one hand you have old-style propaganda (“Unite behind the party blah blah”) and in the next magazine on the newstand rack you’ve got foreign soccer, movie stars, pictures of women’s cleavage (or more if you ask), and all the sorts of trash you get at the supermarket checkout in the US.
I’ll see if I can find the DVD - doesn’t sound like there’s enough sex in it for the HK market.
The trashy stuff includes some virulently nationalistic material - because it sells well. People love it. The PRC Government tries to encourage ot discourage this sentiment depending on the issue. In this instance, it’s relatively aligned with the US (funadmantalist Moslem influences are a challenge in W China).
C.G. I would “love” to see the video / DVD. My Chinese, any dialect, is weak (as in nonexistent), that might make it less informative. Anyway, I saw the second plane smash into the WTC live, like many other coffee drinking U.S. citizens did. Now, I get many replays of all the key events simply by watching the cable news channels. In the U.S. we do not have prior restraint and state censorship - as China does. [sub]yet[/sub]
Just because the Chinese do not conform perfectly to The Communist Manifesto does not mean they are not Communists. Communists (they say they are, that should count for something) often (always) fail to meet up to their ideals - just like democratic republics do. Ruthless oppression of dissent, a lack of pluralism, and thousands of senseless executions turns me off. China has those in spades.
Again, I know China is a burgeoning industrial power - they sell it all here.
As for state-run industry, hmmm… There is a new book, drawing blank which discusses the major subsidies which China must forego if WTO membership is forthcoming. It is predicted (by the author) that if China quits subsidizing its industries, WTO membership (assuming China follows the rules) will destroy much of China’s industrial power. Of course, I assume China will not follow the rules of the WTO. I think your percentage of subsidized industry only takes into account the “official” subsidies.
Hemlock I have no preconceived notions about your relationship with the PRC government. I wonder why you would think something which is so in line with Chinese Communist ideology is somehow not part of the very ideology it epitomizes.
Or, maybe you have helped provide a better rationale for the production of the DVD than I did.
As for the Muslim radicals in China, the PRC does not need our help or approval to ruthlessly quash any and all opposition. Been there, done that. Anti-U.S. propaganda does not subvert that objective anyway. Nor would a conflicting, hypocritical position give Beijing pause for a nanosecond.
Hemlock touched on a point that is quite important in understanding China today. The government selectively plays the nationalism card, and it is one of the greatest potential threats to stability in China/Asia.
For example, after the Belgrade embassy bombing, the government was bussing students in to protest and throw rocks at the US embassy. let’s just say it is very likely that the Chinese embassy was doing something they shouldn’t have, were warned to cease and desist, didn’t, and the scenario played out. I would also point out that during the Hainan plane incident, those same students who threw rocks at the embassy 18 months earlier were then arrested for trying it a second time.
Finally, a decent percentage of the teenager/20 something set also really like to play rebel, and they have few opportunities to. They are not taught to be critical thinkers, or question authority. Generally speaking, the government has little patience for criticism or verbal rebellion. That said, every year or two, this group is presented with a golden opportunity to go wild with little or no fear of retribution. Little logic or critical thinking behind the outbursts, on a most basic level, and chance to be a rebelous, loud teenager. To find one of these guys to spout off for a video or the news about how the US “deserved” 9/11 would be childs play. One of my cousins would step up to the plate in about 10 seconds, but he probably can’t find the US on a map.
One can easily see how the students/youth were mobilized by puppet masters during the cultural revolution. How they pushed too far during 1989 (I’m not making a judgement call on the so-called democracy movement, but simply pointing out that they pushed the government into a position where the government felt it had to push back hard).
Anyway, haven’t found the dvd yet. Will go to another place tomorrow, and if it does indeed exist, they will be sure to have copies…
I say we bootleg the DVD, make zillions of copies, and dump them on the Chinese market.
China Guy:
Very commendable. Very commendable.
Are you suggesting that the U.S. bombed the Chinese embassy on purpose? Well, what do you have to back that up?
It seems a ludicrous theory on the face of it–it was simply not in U.S. best interests to attack the embassy. There’s no reason I know of to even suspect the U.S. would want to.
<december> I’m not making a judgement call on O.J. Simpson’s ex-so-called “wife.” I’m simply pointing out that she pushed O.J. into a position where he felt he had to push back hard. </december> 
What was “so-called” about the democracy movement, anyway? I’m certainly know expert–and you’ll have a greater factual command of the issue than I, I’m sure. But what, precisely, were those kids up to that warranted them getting crushed with tanks–essentially a summary execution?
I will preview my posts. I will preview my posts. I will preview my posts.
I will preview my posts.
I will preview my posts. I will preview my posts. I will preview my posts…
Did anyone else notice below the story title it said:
Never mind. European style: Day-Month-Year
DUH!
panzermanpanzerman, there were reports that the Chinese were letting their embassy in Belgrade be used for radio communications and other purposes which are contrary to internationals conventions. Once they do that it ceases to be neutral. Then the US bombed it and said “oops, sorry for the mistake” but China could not acknowledge what they were doing to cause the attack. This has not been confirmed by any side and we will probably never know the truth.
Regarding the OP I have my doubts that Xinhua would put out any such DVDs which is not to say they are not being sold by other people. But to accuse the Chinese government of doing it I would like to see more proof because it does not jibe with what I know. The source cited seems quite sensationalist to me and not too reliable. I’d like to see some corroborating evidence before I believe it.
Beagle, you do not seem to know much about China and you might want to go spend some time there. You will see that for every American ignorant about China there are dozens of Chinese ignorant about America. You are mistaken if you think of the Chinese people as suffering under the weight of a represive government and yearning for freedom. Talk to the Chinese, especially younger ones, and you are going to get a lot more antiAmerican rhetoric than Anti Chinese government. It is amazing how symmetrical these things are.
I can¡¯t prove it in a court of law. BTW, I was in China at the time it happened. I personally heard from embassy people at several different NATO consulates in China that professed this view. Obviously, those can¡¯t be cited. Circumstantially, there are a lot of indicators that I don¡¯t want to go into fully, but one example is that the speed and organization of China¡¯s ¡°spontaneous¡± reaction suggests pre-knowledge by the Chinese government.
Here is a link to a Guardian story, which I believe was first published in the sister-publication the Observer. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3913246,00.html
A Clinton staffer or cabinet member wrote a book published in Spring 2001 detailing his view that the embassy bombing was deliberate. I¡¯ve done some Google searches, but can¡¯t find this. A Washington watcher among the teemings ought to be able to find this in a manner of minutes.
So-called democracy movement, because while it was branded that way by CNN, there was little democracy involved. I strongly suggest watching the documentary The Gate of Heavenly Peace by Hinton if you really want to learn more about this issue. I feel it provides excellent historic and contextual background, and is very balanced showing both sides in the run up to June 4 and the aftermath. I knew both western reporters covering the event, as well as Chinese students involved. It’s pretty difficult to discuss this if you don’t have much understanding of the entire background. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/programs/categories/info/1418.html
Sailor, I would disagree slightly in that Chinese young people can very freely rage against the West/US, and because it is such a safe outlet for rebellion, you get a lot of it. I don’t think it is true anti-americanism myself.
If you see a DVD from Xinhua News Agency or reported in the People’s Daily, then you could make a fair arguement that it is the official view of the Chinese government. The rest of the Chinese media is a bit of a free for all, and does not speak for the government.