How about the homegrown Hong Kong swearing characters you see in graffitti? They’re all based around the “mun” character for door, with a similar-sounding word to the obscenity inserted between the doors - “diu” was made by putting “siu” inside “mun”, there was one which was “chat” (7) inside “mun” too, though I can’t remember which word it represented. Can’t remember any others, but I was fascinated by them: they were totally unofficial, but everyone knew what they meant.
I’m going to be blunt here, China Guy. You are buying into and repeating prejudiced comments, bigoted comments, ignorant comments. Now, I am really surprised by that because I don’t think–not even for a moment–that you are a bigot of any sort & you’re certainly not ignorant. Take a deep breath and think about what you’ve posted here. Look at the adjectives you’ve used. Think about what they say, not about the people to whom you’ve applied them, but about the person–you–who’s using it.
I’m certain there are plenty of people who like to go around saying the people of Hong Kong are “infamous” for speaking Mandarin (a foreign language to the vast majority of the Hong Kong Yan) with a “horrendous” accent. But think about the words & try to realize that such a comment is mere prejudice. A factual representation of the situation would be: “The Cantonese speakers of Hong Kong, when they must use Mandarin, speak it with an accent. This not surprising because those other Chinese whose native language is not Mandarin also speak it with an accent. Now, these accents may strike some, or even many, native Mandarin speakers with a varying degree of discord, but each accent is merely a different accent.”
Have you ever seen the television show, “The Dragon’s Tongue?” It’s a show to teach Mandarin. That factual representation I just provided above is my own very wordy rendering of a salient point in one episode/lesson.
FYI: This past Saturday, I got to attend a National Day celebration (complete with culture show) put on by the PRC students attending UC-Davis (the celebration & show, though, was not affiliated at all with the University). Besides being a fun time, especially the dancing afterwards, I got to listen to people from different parts of China speaking to each other in Mandarin. I could differentiate a difference in some accents when they used any of the phrases I knew.
I just checked my box of Pringles Sour Cream & Onions[sup]TM[/sup] last night and sure enough, the list of ingredients had a few minor differences but the contact address in the traditional text was in Taipei, so I suppose you’re right.
Well, that’s what I had seemed to notice, thanks for confirming.
can you explain abit more on how cantonese is used in hong kong? i thought “mei you” in mandarin is “mood yau” in formal cantonese and “mo” in colloquial? is formal and colloquial distinct or used together? i’d always thought they were distinct, as in formal is used in songs and colloquial is used in conversations. what do they use in newspapers?
about the cantonese speaking mandarin issue, what is the situation in hong kong? how necessary is it to learn mandarin? it’s my impression that they learnt mandarin mostly out of the reluctant need from joining china. IMHO should the situation be reversed the mandarin speakers would face the same accusations. a motivated learner (a singer for example) would correct their pronunciations much sooner.
make that most everyone. (unless they don’t watch broadcast tv)
I’m not a cantonese expert or anything but the"mo" character is one I’ve always noticed. It’s used in newspapers, magazines and other print media. I think there are others used in addition to the sexually suggestive one point out earlier (Little inside the gate).
They are distinct. Spoken Cantonese is almost always “colloquial” style. However, there are some exceptions; formal announcements (subways, cinemas, etc.) advertising slogans (“nei si sui? Nei si heung gong yan.” and, occasionally, when people just want to be “cute” or add some “character” to their speech.
Hong Kong newspapers are written in formal Chinese but often use Hong Kong/Cantonese vocabulary. However, quotes from peopel speaking Cantonese are quoted in Cantonese style. Looking at today’s Apple Daily, I see a page in the front section headed “the walls have ears” that is all in colloquial Cantonese. But it is the exception, not the rule. From what I’ve been told, students lose points on essays for using Cantonese- not just Cantonese characters, but Cantonese-specific vocabulary. Often when I watch a movie in English I will notice that the dirtier dialogue is more likely to incorporate HK-isms in the Chinese subs, most likely because they don’t really know how to express the kinds of sentiments expressed in, say, Bad Boys 2 in formal Chinese.
There’s a similar contraction for twenty, which is officially “yi sap”, but often becomes “ya”. However, both forms are used. I never in three years heard anyone say “mood yau” (actually, wouldn’t it be more likely to be “ng yau”?). In my experience, everyone bar everyone says “mo”. But I can’t read Chinese, and maybe I never listened to anyone speaking formally. What would a newsreader say?
Oh, also, in compounds or set sayings, words/characters that don’t appear much in Cantonese speech are NOT replaced with Cantonese-preferred words.
A newsreader would say “mou.” Newsreaders are an odd case as the foundation of what they’re speaking is colloquial Cantonese, but they tend to use formal vocabulary that doesn’t appear in Cantonese. I know a guy who is apparently very fluent in Cantonese but can’t read at all, and he says he only understands about 70% of the news because of the phrasing.
That was a problem I had - I could chat away to people in the street or in my office, but the moment the news came on, I was flummoxed.
This isn’t really the time and the place. I would suggest that you ask all of your Chinese friends what they think. Then open a seperate thread. And if you feel you must, a pit thread.
However, having just reread my comments, you will see IMHO, sweeping generalizations and other qualifiers. Sorry if I offended your sensibilities but my China opinions are mine – regardless of what those opinions might be ignorant they certainly are not.
In Hong Kong, there used to be some prejudice against mainland China people. But that’s all changed now. Hong Kong people are finding that they need to learn to speak mandarin to do business, because mainland China is where the money is. And Hong Kong is welcoming mainland tourists to Hong Kong because they’re big spenders, so all sales assistants speak mandarin.
I’m sorry, but I think you’re seriously misinformed. The level of hate for mainlanders is astounding. If anything, it’s worse since the tourism program started. Make no mistake, they like the money and the newspapers will all talk about how much money is coming in, but every day people are talking about how rude and dangerous and immoral mainlanders.
I recently saw a thread on a site a frequent for Chinese practice entitled “which country’s people do you hate the most,” and even with America-bashing being fashionable, mainlanders are still in the lead.
Well, you just proved me wrong, China Guy. You have just claimed those bigoted comments as something you’re proud of. That’s just sad.
If China Guy’s comments- which are mostly a report of what others say- really, truly offend you that much you might not want to get too deep into Chinese affairs as that’s extremely low on the totem pole of offensive things that Chinese people say about each other. You’ll give yourself an ulcer.
**Monty[b/] - C’mon - lighten up. China Guy isn’t saying anything the Chinese don’t say about each other. Enlighten them in person if you have the energy.
Drifting off-thread a bit, I don’t understand much spoken Chinese of any variant, but I find it much easier to pick up street or office Cantonese in HK because of all the English mixed in with it. I find the TV news Cantonese much harder to follow because they deliberately avoid all the anglicisms. Yet another thing to drive Mandarin speakers up the wall.
We are about to be inundated with our semi-annual influx of Mainlanders. Space Vampire has a point about the HK-ers habit of looking down on their Mainland cousins. A well-dressed, classy, (probably English speaking or obviously rich) Mainlander gets red-carpet treatment, but the hicks are still… well, hicks. (The latter are likely to be from Guangdong, it should be said.) Pass the spitoon…
While we’re repeating offensive Chinese phrases, here’s a Beijing phrase I heard for peasant farmers: “dirt dumplings”.
The comment that upset me is the “the Cantonese are the worst…” Yeah, all Cantonese are the worst at something. See my posting above about a million other prejudiced sayings.
Oh, I’m in no danger of getting an ulcer. I just don’t see letting bigoted comments slide.
All I know is that I took classes in Mandarin (Beijing dialect) from a teacher with a Taiwanese accent, and when I got to China the only thing I could understand was their “Sesame Street” style children’s television programming.
Dialect and regional differences are huge!