Read the post, SPOOFE my darling, I’m putting words in the mouth of another 
— G. Raven
Well of course China is guilty of human rights abuses. No one in their right mind would argue otherwise-- probably not even the Chinese government!
As was pointed out early in the thread, every single country is guilty of human rights abuses. There is an unfortunate tendency in Great Debates to demonize everything and anyone possible. China comes up quite frequently in such exercises.
But how much do people really know about the Tienammen Square massacre? Rather than think it was solely an act of unspeakable evil, would you consider that the irresponsibility and recklessness of student leaders could have contributed significantly to the precipitation of the horror? Errors in communication could have been as much to blame as the heartless men who killed so many students? Wasn’t there fear (not to mention other destructive feelings) on both sides of the tanks?
And the Falun Gong: yes, they are a repressed group, but how much do we really know about them? They have an underground network across China and complete dedication to their cause. I for one do not believe that all the Falun Gong are interested in doing is meditating–were that the case, I doubt they would be able to operate their network. Like any group, the Falun Gong have their agenda and, regardless whether that agenda is “evil” intent, any large and organized group submitting to the will of a leader who is not the government is highly suspect to the Chinese, and rightly so given their 20th century.
People frequently bring up the topic of China as an ancient land of culture, knowledge, wisdom, etc., a well known line of propaganda particularly diffuse in the West. What people frequently forget is that for 5,000 years China has also been a land of disease, starvation, oppression, repression, war, in-fighting, tribal conflict, slavery, and similar niceties. Everyone loves to demonize the Commies, but the commies eventually managed to feed the people, purge the warlords, and build a country that works. Certainly there were problems along the road, and there will be more.
There is absolutely no question that China is guilty of numerous Human Rights abuses. The key question is: does China’s record in Human Rights, especially given the tortured and frequently feudal history of the country, appear to be improving? The answer seems to be yes. It’s a huge country with an enormous population, and one slip could multiply in disaster for many people indeed (see Tiannemen). Yet when we look to China we ought to see more than just inadequacy; significant progress has been made in that country, and such progress needs to be encouraged, not demonized. The same applies to our attitudes towards all developing countries, which we tend to view without adequate regard for the difficulties they face.
Which is not to say that we should turn a blind eye to the crimes committed by the Chinese government of course. I do, however, believe that cooperation with the Chinese authorities will achieve immeasurably more than confrontation.
I’d just like to ask anyone worried about the repression of the Falun Gong to actually read up on this thing. It has more in common with Scientology and “End of Days” cults than spiritual enlightenment. And their so called leader is quite a sinister-sounding character in many respects.
– G. Raven
Yep, don’t get me started on the Falungong.
Okay, as far as freedom of religion is concerned in China, you have an awful lot to choose from. There are even cause celebre (sp?) like Tibet. Pick an obvious cause that needs help and not some fringe group like the Falungong. Sure they are being demonized by the Chinese press, but they also challenged the Chinese government in their heart of Zhongnanhai. I would also submit that people who self emolt themselves have a problem. But this is a digression.
MAIN POINT: there are plenty of mainstream religious groups that could use help to gain more freedom in China. For example, Buddhists, Muslims and Christians.
My personal two cents worth on the Falungong group. My wife started to get involved with them in Hong Kong in 1998. At first it was just breathing exercises. Then it was devotion to the master and gimme money. Insideous stuff. Exact same kind of crapola as circa late sixties early seventies Moonies (apologies to the Unification Church members out there, but you had at least a partially deserved reputation back then).
Most basic human right is that to basic food, shelter and peace. After that, you can worry about freedom of assembly, religion and the pursuit of happiness. The People’s Republic of China scores at least passing grades on the basics although fall short on other rights.
China Guy,
I appreciated your e-mail, and I have no particular problem with your objections to what I said earlier in this thread.
However, if you would, please post them publicly in the future, or provide an e-mail address that I can reach you at in the near future. I won’t attack you for your honest opinions. I would, however, like to have the opportunity to respond in a manner that will ensure that my response to your comments will be read by you in a short time.
As it is, I’m being somewhat tacky in posting this right now. For that, you all have my apology, especially you, China Guy. I just wanted to make sure that you understood what I was saying.
Thanks, and I hope the purpose for this is understood.
-Dave