Do you want China to prosper or fail?

Great Debates
1

I’ve been thinking a lot about the People’s Republic of China recently. I’ve tried to educate myself on their revolution, and how the government has come a long way from Mau Zedong’s original vision, and I believe, for the better.

But I really believe that their government is a massively destructive one, and its economic success scares me in many ways. Not because I’m a jealous American who thinks that everything we do is best, but because I think that China is responsible for some pretty egregious environmental and human rights abuses. As they continue to grow and dominate the political and economic climate around the planet, it only lends legitimacy to their one-party state and the terrible things that they do to their people.

But on the other hand, the average Chinese citizen is far better off than they were 50 or 60 years ago. The quality of life, access to food and medicine, technology, etc, is generally far better. In these ways, the economic prosperity of China is undoubtedly a good thing.

I just can’t help but wish that the current government would fail in some important way, and be changed into or replaced by a more egalitarian government. I want to see a China where people have complete freedom of speech, where there is free press, and a more fair justice system is instituted. I want to see a China that can put a man on the moon AND have an open internet that doesn’t block social networking, youtube, and other websites.

My boyfriend made a trip to China and had to be told by the tour guide to be careful what he said, did, and did online, lest he get in trouble with the police. You’d never get such a list of don’ts on a tour in America. I want to see a China that’s strong, free and proud.

I envy the Chinese culture in many ways. They have strong values, typically believe in hard work, studying well, saving money and spending wisely, etc. It’s a rich culture and I want to see them do well, but I want their government to fail miserably.

I care so much about China because I can see the writing on the wall and I see that it probably will be (if it isn’t already) a world economic super power, and this means that its government model might be emulated and spread across the globe. I don’t want that to happen, but I don’t know if there’s anything we can do to stop it.

2

I want them to prosper, somewhat less than the US though. I don’t think a failure will be good for anybody.

3

I want them to prosper big time. And also open up more, change their government and really join the world community. Imagine the market potential of a vibrant and open China? Woofa!

-XT

4

I’d like to point out that ‘egregious environmental abuses’ is part of the growing pains of any developing nation, and only recently have they surpassed the United States in total yearly pollution output. And they still aren’t even close when you compare it per person.

As far as the totalitarianism, their regime rests on the good will of the people and that good will comes from economic prosperity. With affluence comes an educated middle class and a solid block of people who feel empowered yet not indebted to the Communist Party. They will want to know why they can’t have a government like Taiwan. Either the gravy train will stop and citizens will demand freedom or it will continue and more people will feel they deserve freedom.

5

China is trying to make it from feudalism to capitalism in 75 years. Sure they are fucked up, but remember that we started out as a country that had legal chattel slavery, decades of Jim Crow, and McCarthyism. People in China value stability more than they do our ideals of personal liberty. That probably makes sense given their history and where they are now in terms of their development. I wish them well, but at the same time I think that they and India are going to eat the United States’ lunch in another decade or so. The Chinese are creating engineers and scientists like mad while we are increasingly becoming a society that celebrates morons like Creationists and AGW skeptics.

6

I think the Chinese are working too hard and need to relax a little. Let’s sell them some opium! :slight_smile:

7

Some years back, when everybody else was getting a piece of the Vietnam action, the US was holding back out of spite and I was champing at the bit because we weren’t. More, and more prosperous, markets are in everybody’s interest. Pettiness has no place.

8

Prosper. Of course, I have perspective that you don’t, I spent about 3 years altogether in the 1980’s in the Chinese countryside (by choice). China was not prosperous then. It was so poor that there were places that made you just want to weep when you saw how poor it was. It was so poor that a city of millions like Hengyang was considered “good” because “you could buy eggs there.”

China and the life for the average Wong has improved since then. And that’s including the mass dismantling of cradle to the grave socialism and collective farming.

To the OP, I have no idea why the tour guides told your boyfriend that. Except that there have probably been some well meaning but asinine tour group members that went wy over the top to get in the the government’s face. Honestly, the Chinese government really doesn’t care unless it’s egrarious.

Also to the OP, the Chinese government is evolving as well. The current government is not the one responsible for Tian’anmen, nor are the students the same for that matter. The economy has doubled approximatly thrice since Tiananmen, and the China of today is largely unrecognizable to the China of 1989. It certainly isn’t all roses but the lot of the average Chinese has improved a lot. Obesity and type 2 diabetes are nice problems to have when the opposite was mass starvation 50ish years ago.

It may suck to be a factory worker from the countryside these days. And all of the Apple fanboys buying stuff are partially responsible for that. I’ll tell you what though, it sucked much worse to be stuck in the countryside 3 decades ago with no freedom of movement and essentially serfdom as your fate.

9

Would it have been better or worse if you had had a time machine and visited the same place during, say, the Ming Dynasty?

10

I want their people to prosper but I want the goverment to fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLP3ZYuSrJY

11

Only Americans it appears to me (I hope I am wrong) can seriously have a debate on whether they want a country to prosper or fail.:rolleyes:

12

Why do you want to be wrong? It is another sign of our exceptionalism that we can debate this while other countries cannot.

13

not true ! what about the Brits who where scared about a unified Germany in the early 90’s?

I’m from the Netherlands, traditionally a country of traders, meaning we only prosper when other countries prosper….

14

Actually… I think this question is being seriously debated by most of China’s neighbors.

15

The question that China’s neighbours (of which my country is one) is whether Chinas growth will lead to Chinese expansionism. Not whether or not its a good thing that China is prosperous, there is no question that it is.

16

Prosper. Is it all that bad to be taken over economically?

Holland used to be a world power at trading at sea in the 17th century. In the eighteenth and early nineteenth century, all that was gone and we were a quiet society dreaming of former glory. Then we discovered more profitable ways to exploit our colonies, and once again we rose economically.
Then there was about forty years of the general misery for the poor brought on by early industrialism, followed once more by a decline in wealth and economic power from 1940 to 1970 as we lost our colonies. Those decades, of relative austerity are thought of as the golden years by many middle aged and eldery people now living.
Then, in the late sixties, we discovered our vast national gas reserves and up our wealth went again, enabling us to invest in education and a high-tech (agricultural) economy.

My point is, through al these clear ups and downs, the general happiness of any person generally stays the same. Times may be booming or they may be slow, but for the average person happiness is far more determined by factors much closer to home then world ecomomics. If you are happy or not, is determined by your health, your loved ones, a good social network, some degree of individual freedom to follow your personal goals. All of that will still be possible if someone else rises in the eternal rise and fall rythm of nations.

17

I think you’re splitting hairs here a bit. You’re right that most would likely be okay with Chinese economic prosperity if that’s all there was to it (although I suspect that Japan and Korea don’t really want them as a competitor). But economic prosperity leads to influence and power in other areas, so the issues can’t really be neatly separated.

18

I’m split.

Half of me wants the poverty & attendant suffering to end, half of me fears what may happen if a wealthy, powerful & very-well-armed China decides that military conquest would be jolly fun.

19

if history has shown one thing, it is that prosperous countries (who are not the US) don’ t get into wars unnecessarily.

20

Where does it show that?