chiropractors....I ain't sure

Factual Questions
21

About the ear infections:
Many times a child has their neck bent way out of wack while being pulled from their mother during the birth process. This happened to my oldest. The silly thing wanted to be born face up so I needed assistance from the OB in getting her out. Anyway, that’s the start. THEN the vertibrae are out of place which causes the muscles connected to them to be tight all of the time. Mingled among these neck muscles are the nerves that lead to the parts of the ear and also the eustachian tubes. If the neck muscles are tight, they are choking off the nerve impulses in the nerves and also the free flow of the eustachian tubes. This can lead to chronic ear infections.

You shouldn’t just go see a chiropractor for chronic ear infections. It is an aid to what the MD can do for you in that situation. Other possibilities that people don’t think about are food and environmental allergies. In my experience, a chiropractor will try and make you think if their is a trigger like diet that an MD will ignore. If they can’t write a Rx for it, it’s not worth looking into.

22

I am looking at several pamphlets from a chiropractitioner (?) located in Albany, New York.

The titles are:

“Allergies,” “Asthma,” “Blood Pressure,” “Chronic Fatigue Syndrome,” “Ear Infections,” “Emphysema,” “Fibromyalgia,” “Healthier Children with Chiropractic,” “Immune System Disorders,” “Infants & Babies,” “Strengthen Your Immune System,” and “Why Should I Return If I am Feeling Fine.”

Without doing a lot more typing, I will simply state that each pamphlet represents chiro ‘therapy’ as a solution for the ailments or people in the brochure.

Further, deponent sayeth not.

  • Rick
23

Doctor Jackson: My brother is a PT as well. I didn’t mean that the chiros in the “quack” group would give the same therapy – I was talking more along the lines of the chiros in the non-quack group. Sure, it won’t be exactly the same treatment, but it probably won’t be too very far off. You’re right, a PT wouldn’t do spinal manipulation and all that, though.

Regarding osteopaths, I offer the following link: http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Quoting from its first few lines: “Osteopathic physicians (DOs) are the legal and professional equivalents of medical doctors. Although most offer competent care, the percentages involved in chelation therapy, clinical ecology, orthomolecular therapy, homeopathy, ayurvedic medicine, and several other dubious practices appear to be higher among osteopaths than among medical doctors.”

24

Rick, LOL - you read Harlan Ellison or what?

As for the rest of this…well I had a chiro appt. last night and asked a few questions for y’all.

My doc had to go to college for the same amount of time that medical doctors do. That is 4 years as an undergrad, and 4 years in med school. He says that the only difference in education for them was that when M.D students took classes in giving prescriptions, he and his classmates were taking extra neurology and related classes. I wasn’t there…it’s just what he told me. Of course he added lots more. He went on to explain why licensed physicians and licensed chiro’s can give you a physical exam and come up with a diagnosis and a physical therapist can only follow the aforesaid diagnosis.

(anecdote/) After the only major accident I have yet had, my left arm was knocked partly out of it’s socket, and a rib was poking my right lung. My chiro had that rib taken care of in a matter of minutes. Breathing painlessly is GOOD! As for the arm thing, it was eased back into place and fully healed within 2 weeks. The doctor’s at the hospital (after the accident) said I would need surgery. (/anecdote)

Both kinds of doctors (MD and Chiro) can be extremely helpfull…depending on your injury.

JBW

*Oh No - Not another learning experience!

25

Hmmmm…

I wonder how many classes on non-musculoskeletal (hey, that might even be a real word) stuff the chiros have. I’m sorry, but I find it very difficult to believe that they take “the same classes” except the prescription stuff. Also he neglected to mention that even if they go to school for the same amount of time, docs still go into residency for an even longer period.

I’d also love to know how he thinks he can “diagnose” just like a doctor – in terms of ear infections, strep throat, heart disease, cancer, eye problems, ulcers, etc.

26

Um… undoubtedly I’ve read a few short stories of his over the years, although nothing comes to mind… and I must admit I don’t get the reference at all - what made you think of Harlan Ellison?

  • Rick
27

Regarding chirocraptic - er, chiropractic, see the links.
http://www.quackwatch.com/

Scroll down to questionable therapies, there is a whole block on chiropractic.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiro.html (1st link in list)

Why is it chiropractic? Shouldn’t that be an adjective? Shouldn’t the noun form be chiropractice? Chiropracty? Chiropterix? Chirpracticality?

There are some good chiropractors, who stick with spine and skeletal system. There are many who pull every alternative medicine/new age mysticism / all western medicine is bad type junk they can dig up and convince you to buy.

A controlled study or two was conducted that showed a real benefit to some chiropractic. However, that was limited to controlling lower back pain, and was no different than moderate exercise. Basically your body can shift out of alignment, but exercise will work it back. It just may take longer to do it yourself.

[Anecdote] My sister has problems with her back, partially from a back injury in college, but also a misalignment of the hips. This is shown on X-ray and was identified as a teen, causing some mild scoliosis. She does see a chiropractor from time to time when her back gets out of whack. A quick office visit and it fixes a debilitating pain and nausea. However, that’s all she goes for. Otherwise she visits a real doctor. My brother, on the other hand, is deeply in to new age and alternative therapies, and visits a chiropractor regularly who uses “Contact Reflex Analysis”, or reflexology. That is the practice of feeling spots and how the body moves and reacts and diagnosing illness. See Quackwatch regarding reflexology. My brother swears by it, but then he thinks he’s clairvoyant.

28

If you have lower back pain, GO TO A LICENSED MASSAGE THERAPIST!!!

It’s safe; cheaper than chiro; makes no goofy claims;is non-sexual & can actually help.
Don’t trust anybody who says that “germs don’t exist”. If somebody says that to you, offer him $50 to drink a glass of stagant swamp water without contracting diarrhea. Maybe his “life force manipulations” will prevent it. If not…HA!

“Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.”----Jung

29

SosoMom said:

I’ve never heard this before. In nursing school, we were taught that ear infections are caused by germs (as are all other infections); clogged or inflamed Eustacian tubes can lead to ear infections. Young children are particularly vulnerable to ear infections because their Eustacian tubes aren’t fully mature and are at an awkward angle that makes them more likely to become occluded. I don’t understand how problems with the nerves around the ears or in the neck can cause infections, nor do I see how childbirth can disrupt the Eustacian tubes (which are located inside your head, not really anywhere near your neck).

While I understand the sentiment behind this statement- not all doctors are super-great at listening to patients, and some are motivated too much by money- I still think this is an unfortunate generalization. The vast majority of the doctors I know (even the ones with bad bedside manners) are honestly concerned with their patients’ welfare. I know very few who will simply write a prescription without carefully considering other treatments as well as, or instead of, medication. Often, frankly, a prescription is what the patient needs. BUT, even if ALL medical doctors were jerks and medicine was completely useless, this would still not prove that chiropractic is better.

I do agree with you, SoSoMom, that if you go the chiropractic route, it’s good to use it in conjunction with traditional medicine and not as a substitute for it.

[anecdote]My husband went to the chiropractor for mild back pain. The adjustment caused such severe pain that my stoic husband was in tears, could not drive or feed himself or dress himself for two weeks, and lost 3 weeks of work. The chiropractor admitted the adjustment had exascerbated the problem.[/anecdote]

[anecdote]When my handicapped son was about 5 days old, we were at the chiropractor for my husband’s adjustment. The chiropractor took one look at baby Jake (who was born with contractures of every joint in his body and is missing several major muscles altogether) and said he’d seen this thing several times before and could cure it. (My son’s birth defect is very specific and very rare- I’ve only met one doctor in my city that has ever seen a case.) Though I was skeptical (not skeptical enough, obviously) I let the chiropractor do an adjustment on Jake. He lay the baby face down on my stomach and popped his back so hard that it felt like I’d been punched. It literally knocked the wind out of me, and Jake took the brunt of the impact. Jake screamed for about an hour afterwards; I was worried that he might have suffered some internal injury. What kind of a psychopath would do such a thing to a baby, much less a handicapped, underweight newborn baby?[/anecdote]

Anecdotes prove nothing.

30

Holly said:

Yeah, but what the hell do you know? I mean, you actually believe in germs and stuff. Ha!

31

A few short observations:

Manipulation does not equal chiropractic. But chiropractic does equal manipulation! MDs, DOs, PTs and DCs use manipulation. The difference in use by these professions is in regards to indications, contraindications, technique and frequency. DCs are the only ones that: call it “adjustments”; use it to “correct subluxations” (chiropractic subluxations do not exist in the real world); use it on asymptomatic individuals; use it frequently (always); and use it to treat problems outside of the neuromuskuloskeletal system.

Quacks exist in all professions. Quackery does not have to involve bad motives or fraud. Good motives do not justify quackery. Malpractice and negligence are not quackery

There are generally two types of chiros: Traditionalists, as described above (philosophic) and Reformists (scientific) represented by the NACM.

Some types of problems respond best to a hands-on approach (manual therapy), possibly combined with medicine, but don’t respond well to medicine alone. So anyone using manual therapy, quack or not, will likely get a better result than medicine alone.

Massage and exercise can do wonders.

The back is much more than the spine/vertebral column.

Joint mobilization can nearly always make manipulation superfluous, and should therefore be preferred.

When the back is “out of alignment” it is not out of joint. That can’t happen without a fracture (and then manipulation/adjustment would be absolutely contraindicated). It’s most likely tense muscles that are pulling it crooked. Treat the muscles with warmth, massage and stretching, and combined with the use of joint mobilization - presto, your back is now aligned again! No need for manipulation/adjustment.
Regarding the relation between the professions of Physical Therapy and Chiropractic:

“IMHO, NACM-minded DCs need to abandon the old “ship”
completely and find another name for their new “ship”.” - PL

To the quote of mine above, I got the following reply from a reform chiropractor:

“They can’t… it’s already called “physical therapy.” In fact,
PTs represent perhaps the greatest potential threat to “chiropractic”
and chiropractors that I can think of (besides insight, that is).
If they as a group ever decided to “embrace” manipulative therapy
by adding to their baseline requirements for graduation, after
the battle-dust between the professions cleared, there would be
no requirement for a separate profession called “chiropractic.”
IOW, whatever it is that chiropractors CLAIM is valid biomedically
about what they do, the so-called (and much overrated) “baby” in
chiropractic’s turbid bath-water, would ALREADY be a part of what
physical therapists could offer. And that, as they say, would be
that.” END QUOTE
A FEW RELEVANT LINKS

The Spin Doctors Investigation
http://www.canoe.ca/ChiroYork

Chirobase: A Skeptical Guide
http://www.chirobase.org

Chirowatch
http://www.chirowatch.com

National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (NACM)
http://www.chiromed.org

NCAHF Position Paper on Chiropractic
http://www.ncrhi.org

Skeptic’s Dictionary: Chiropractic
http://dcn.davis.ca.us/go/btcarrol/skeptic/chiro.html

HCRC FAQ Sheet: Chiropractic
http://www.hcrc.org/faqs/chiro.html

Malpractice is an inevitable result of chiropractic philosophy and training
Malpractice Is an Inevitable Result of Chiropractic Philosophy and Training (1979) | Quackwatch

Chiropractic’s elusive “subluxation”
Chiropractic's Elusive Subluxations | Quackwatch

Concerns About Chiropractic At York Univ.
http://www.ndir.com/chiro
http://www.ndir.com/chiro/sram.html

Angry scientists fight univ. attempt to affiliate with chiropractic college
http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-160/issue-1/0099.htm

Chiropractors May Not Use the Term “Physical Therapy”
http://www.apta.org/govt_aff/news-a_cmp.html
I am now in the process of reading the classic work by Dr. Samuel Homola, DC, “Bonesetting, Chiropractic and Cultism”. An on-line transcript of the book exists on Chirobase: Chiropractic, Bonesetting, and Cultism: Contents | Quackwatch .

Excellent reading!! It covers the subject thoroughly, from the viewpoint of a second-generation chiropractor.

In case you haven’t guessed it yet, my “specialty” in the study of healthfraud and quackery is … chiropractic!..:wink:

FWIW,

Paul Lee, PT
Denmark

PS: Any replies to this should also be sent to me by e-mail, as I don’t regularly monitor this great site.
E-mail - healthbase@post.tele.dk
HF List Intro. - http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml
The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

32

I don’t want to get too off-topic here, but that statement is mostly bullshit. For those who have healthcare in the States, their HMO-style care is usually about the same level as the socialized medicine you find overseas. A paying privledge here is standard in most of Europe and everyone can get treated. When it comes to quality of life issues the US is lucky to make it in the top 10.

33

Horse, I have several friends who are doctors. One general surgeon, One specialist, One Emergency room medicine, Two OB’s and a heart surgeon. These people are from different aspects of my life and with the exception of the two surgeons who are brothers, do not know each other. I’m not making up statements out of my butt. I have listen to their shop talk and the medicine we have here in the US is the best in the world.Everyone of them says this.

It’s our healthy care system that is out of whack. Of the two surgeons, one now does research work because he doesn’t want to deal with the insurance companies. To make a surgical decision based on what someones HMO/Medicaid/BCBS says is wrong. Funny how I cannot disagree with him on that score.

If you think National Healthcare is so great, ask a Canadian. Most of them ( that I know and I have cousins in Eh-ville) carry supplemental insurance so they can come over to the states to get what they need to have done in a timely fashion and not put on some list.

There are some pro’s to National Health Care in itself and the only one I can think of is: Pregnancy, birth and recovery. In England, a woman can be in the hospital for as little as a few hours to as much as 7 days after birth. She decides. She also receives free eye and dental care for a year after birth. ( Optical and dental are not covered in NHC)

There has to be something between National Health care and the debacle we call Insurance here in the states. A happy medium. A common ground. Doubtful it will happen in our life times.

All I can say is that I am very grateful to be insured and to be very healthy. And to have friends in the medical profession I can call if I need to to get the real scoop if I feel I’m given the run around.

34

Over a year ago I managed to really mess myself up. I could bench press 280 + lbs with no problem but getting my big butt out the chair to get the remote control was too much trouble so I leaned and twisted to get it from another chair and felt “a little tug” in the vicinity of my lower back.

Over the next three weeks an intense, fiery pain running up and down my right leg more or less immobilized me and I had to walk with a cane it got so bad.

A primary care doc saw me and prescribed muscle relaxants and pain killers. He thought it was a torn ligament/muscle or a pinched nerve. If it didn’t get better my itself he foresaw surgery as the next step.

Over the next week or so the pills temporarily dulled the pain but otherwise did nothing. One evening I needed to move a large dresser and despite the pain hoisted it up to get it out of the way. This involved lifting and turning with a large 100+ lb piece of furniture. Immediately and I mean IMMEDIATELY after I did this the pain went away as if it had never been there. This was as close to miracle as anything I have ever experienced.

I was subsequently told by a client who owned a GYM that I had essentially “adjusted” the pinched nerve myself. Why the primary care doc never did this or suggested it be done I don’t know. Now that I have figured out the solution if I ever suspect I have pinched a nerve I can do a series of excruciatingly intense stretching exercises and the problem goes away.

Chiros are probably half quacks but if they have chiros that can do for other people what I did for myself I don’t think they will be out of business anytime soon especially when “real” docs are not inclined to get beyond the “pills/knife…next patient please” methodology.

35

This is something that I’ve wanted to address on here for a while-- it irritates me whenever I see chiropractic lumped in with various forms of quackery. There is a legitimate field of chiropractic. The problem only comes in when the practitioners make claims beyond that area. Chiropractic techniques can, in fact, help back pain dramatically. Earaches? Nausea? No surprise here, but chiropractic is useless there. There’s also some talk bouncing around about just how qualified a chiropracter is. As it happens, I have a cousin who is a chiropractor. He has a Doctorate of Medicine, same degree as your general practitioner has. I’m not sure if the M.D. is a requirement in his state (PA), but he’s said that one should never go to a chiropracter unless he has an M.D.
Admittedly, there are people who claim to be chiropracters, without any qualifications, and who use these claims to rip people off. These folks are no worse than bogus oncologists, or surgeons, or any other medical professional. Likewise, the fact that there exist sham artists claiming to be oncologists does not mean that all oncologists are shams.

36

SoMoMoM: There is no evidence that any type of delivery causes tight muscles in the neck, little newborns are very soft and elastic and well able to take all kinds of deliveries. Can I point out that even a normal delivery can present with the neck twisted around 180 degrees. I can’t believe that anyone would try to manipulate a baby’s spine and I can only suspect that this practice must have dangers.

I suppose the baby who stopped crying may have done so for fear that the performance would be repeated!

I also dispute that American Health Care is the best in the world. It is merely the most technologised. It is common knowledge that American medical graduates have relatively poor clinical skills but certainly know what tests to order. Graduates of the British, Irish, Australian medical schools prbably have better clinical skills, Germans and Indian graduates are worse. Americans are also somewhat reluctant to take notice of overseas research and have been known to persist with treatments which have been demonstrated subsequently to be less effective. I seem to recall that the mgso4 vs phenytoin for pre-eclampsia debate was an example of this.

37

Chronos writes:

There are of course some DCs who are also MDs. In France it’s a ploy to get around the laws against the practice of chiropractic. After getting their MD degree, they then go on to continue practicing chiropractic, apparently unaffected by their contact with a scientific education.

Whether your cousin’s “Doctorate of Medicine” is legitimate or not (I’ll assume that it is), it is not a requirement for a DC in any state. His reasons for saying that leave me wondering. There do exist D.M. and M.D. degrees that are NOT the same as a real general practitioner’s degree. In chiropractic circles this is a real problem. The following example illustrates the point well. Although it’s a bad case, it is far from the only one:

Some Notes on the Activities and Credentials of Jay M. Holder, D.C.
http://www.chirobase.org/15News/holder.html

Read this too:
http://www.chiro.org/chiro-list/newsfile/holder.htm

> Chiropractic Blasphemy?

>> In the October issue of The American Journal of Clinical Chiropractic, publisher Donald Harrison, MS, DC, FICA, tackles the issue of the use of false academic credentials by DCs. This is a problem that needs to be seriously looked at by our profession. Dr. Harrison cites two examples of false credentials in associated articles beginning on his front page. He questions the “PhD” of Ronald Aragona, DC (1) The other article describes his findings after investigating the “MD,” “PhD,” “Albert Schweitzer Award,” “Knighthood,” and “appointment to the faculty, Pharmacology, University of Miami” of Jay Holder, DC (2) <<

In this article can be found an alternative interpretation for the M.D. degree:

“…outstanding students are awarded an M.D. (which is their abbreviation for Masters Degree).”

Anyone in possession of such a degree, can most often be assumed to have bad intent. Otherwise, Why would they acquire it? The way they tell about it will often reveal an intent to mislead. They give the false impression that it is a bonafide MD degree (real medical doctor).
Now to another comment:

This is of course a punishable offense and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Claiming to be an MD, DC, PT, DO, etc., when you aren’t, is illegal. Likewise, claiming to give chiropractic treatment, if you aren’t a DC, is illegal. It is misleading. The same principle applies to anyone claiming to give physical therapy treatment, if they aren’t a PT. This practice (extremely common among DCs) is now illegal in Pennsylvania, possibly New Jersey and some other states.

The decision of the PA Supreme Court forbidding DCs from using the term “physical therapy” is worth looking at: http://www.apta.org/govt_aff/news-a_cmp.html

The use of terminology that can be misleading is what the court addressed.

Some DCs use the term “adjunctive therapies” instead. This is an acceptable substitute, which leaves no confusion and reveals good intent. That I can respect.

Paul Lee, PT
The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

38

Minor quibble, fyslee: My cousin never claimed that possesion of a M.D. degree was a requirement to practice chiropractic-- that was my own uninformed speculation. What he did say, was that the degree was a requirement to practice well, and that a (possibly legal) chiropracter without a medical degree should not be trusted in his practice. I hadn’t heard about the scams where MD stands for “master’s degree”, although it does sound like something that I can see con artists coming up with. However, I can assure you that when this cousin of mine puts “M.D.” after his name, he means the same thing by it that C. Everett Koop does. The bottom line is, whenever you’re visiting a chiropracter (or anyone else claiming to produce medical benefits), make sure you know going in who and what you’re dealing with.

39

Chronos writes:

Glad to hear it about your cousin. And I also agree with your last sentence.
(BTW, I really like your Einstein quote. How true!)

Paul Lee, PT

40

David B. writes:

The non-quack group is unfortunately a very small group. Some of them are active in the NACM http://www.chiromed.org . I am in contact with several of them and can respect their views very much. They are not afraid to admit that most of their colleagues don’t know their limits and do use quackish methods of practice and marketing. In fact, most of what passes as post-graduate training is actually practice building seminars.

Depends on where the PT practices. I’m in Denmark, where PTs are allowed to use ALL forms of manual therapy. This unfortunately results in some PTs acting like DCs and manipulating the hell out of their patients. I’m doing what I can to educate Danish PTs to not consider the typical DC’s way of practicing as desirable.

Personally I consider it a failure on my part if I can’t avoid manipulating. I prefer joint mobilization. Much safer too.