Christianity 101 Questions from an Ex-Mormon

Great Debates
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Sunday was Easter so I gave some lessons about Easter and Christianity to some of my English students.

Mostly, they had absolutely no idea what Christianity believes. However, I quickly realized that I am mostly familiar with the Mormon views, which are definitely not mainstream, and don’t know that much about other Christian beliefs.

I grew up Mormon in Salt Lake City in the 60s and 70s, and I only knew a few non-Mormons until high school. The high school non-Mormon friends were not religious or didn’t discuss their religion. I’ve lived in East Asia for 30 years so I haven’t been exposed to many active Christians here, either.

OK, enough background. Some (stupid) questions

  1. Where do souls/spirits come from?

The Mormon belief is that there are things called “intelligences” which have existed from the beginning of time. God and a Heavenly Mother make spirits from that. All of us existed as spirits in the pre-existence and we needed to come down to Earth for receive our bodies.

What is the mainstream Christian beliefs on where people’s spirits comes from. Does God create them? If so, when?

  1. Where does Satan come from?

The Mormon belief is that Satan is one of the children of God, e.g., one of our spirit brothers, just as Jesus is also a spiritual brother. Satan went bad and took one third of the spirits with him. Those of us who have come to the Earth as humans are among those who either fought on God’s side or were neutral.

  1. After a person died, what happens to them while waiting for the resurrection?

The Mormon belief is that there is are two places for the spirits to go while waiting for the resurrection. Paradise where the baptized members in good standing go and spirit prison for everyone else.

Does a person’s soul wait with the body? Go someplace? Sleep? Be conscious?

  1. Does everyone get resurrected at the Second Coming? When are people judged?

The Mormon belief is that the good Mormons do, and then temple work (where dead people can become Mormons) is required for other people to be resurrected.

The Second Coming ushers in a Millennium and by the end of the 1,000 years all people will have been resurrected.

  1. What sort of people go to hell, and is it forever?

We were taught that other churches believe that people who were not baptized Christian can’t go to Heaven.

How universal is (or was) that belief? Once in hell, are you there forever?

The Mormon belief is that there are four places you can wind up. The celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom and the telestial kingdom, ranked from best to worst. Those within the highest degree in the celestial kingdom go on the become gods and goddesses themselves, which is definitely not mainstream.
Then there is “outer darkness” where Satan, his followers from the preexistence and a certain number of people will go.

Other questions may follow.

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Sorry! The title field should have said “Christianity 101 Questions from an Ex-Mormon” but got eaten as I was submitting it.

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Fixed.

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1.) There is no accepted doctrine on this. No Christians except Mormons believe in pre-creation though. The most common stance is that the soul is created at the moment of conception by God. The other is transducianism where the soul is a naturally created entity that arises from its two parents.

2.) Again, no accepted answer. Many Progressive Protestants would simply say that Satan is a metaphor for our own desire to prioritize our wants above others and is not a ‘being’ at all. A more traditional stance is that he was an angel that rebelled against God.

3.) No single answer. Three main beliefs. Purgatory, directly to Heaven/Hell and soul-sleep.

4.) Just and unjust resurrection is the traditional view held by all major denominations.

5.) There is a huge range of belief on this one. Typically, Protestants do not require baptism, though it is strongly suggested especially once one has the ability to choose to express their faith. Catholics mostly do think that baptism is required. Many Protestants, particularly mainlines are universalists that believe in an ultimate universal reconciliation where everyone joins with God. Among universalists, some believe in a temporary Hell for the worst people to become contrite, others do not. Fundamentalists tend to believe in an eternal Hell from where there is no return. Mormonism was largely created during the 2nd Great Awakening, so it might be helpful to view it as a tangent of fundamentalist rural Methodist and Baptist beliefs of that era with strong emphasis on judgement, the spirit world and the imminent return of God.

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Lutheran here.

None of these are dogma in my tradition - that is, it is possible to disagree without affecting any important part of the faith.

God creates people. People are souls that have bodies, temporarily. He creates them when He creates people. If you mean when does a fetus become a person, that is not defined.

Christian teaching is that Satan is a fallen angel. Satan is not the equivalent of Jesus - Jesus has no equivalent. But yes, Satan rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven along with some other angels (the idea that it was a third of all angels comes from the book of Revelation).

There are at least two schools of thought. One is that when you die, your soul/you go to heaven, are judged, and then are either admitted to heaven or cast into hell. Another is that you die, then at the Second Coming, you are resurrected, judged, and then either enter heaven or are cast into hell.

See above.

Mainstream Christian belief is that nothing apart from the death and resurrection of Jesus is necessary for anyone’s salvation.

Anyone who rejects the Holy Spirit, and it is forever. Lutherans don’t do purgatory, if that is what you are talking about.

If you mean the question of the virtuous pagan, who never heard the Gospel, that is not a settled question. Lutherans, at least IME, don’t spend a lot of time deciding who is going to heaven and who is not. Spread the Gospel as much as we can, and leave the un-baptized babies to the infinite mercy of God.

Again, I am Lutheran. We believe in Christ alone, grace alone, and a good hot dish recipe.

Regards,
Shodan

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Answering without actually searching for the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Take into account that several of these questions are stuff that I don’t think I’ve ever met anybody who even thought about them in those specific terms before.

God makes them. Official theology, “when” is not relevant for a Being to Whom everything is “now”. Unofficial theology includes tales and jokes about what souls do before being assigned, but it’s completely unofficial and while there may be people who take it literally, well… it’s definitely not something you’ll find in any book that carries a “nihil obstat.”

God made him. But that’s the answer you get for any “where does XYZ come from” :slight_smile:

General Christian answer (variations by denomination), he is an angel who rebelled against God, in fact the leader of the rebellion. He is no equal to God, but as subordinate as all of His creatures… just not particularly good at the “subordinate” bit.

The post-end-of-the-world world is not something to which Catholicism dedicates a lot of time. The idea of Purgatory (a sort of temporary Hell where you pay for minor sins, where your sentence can be reduced thanks to the love of people praying for you) is linked to a notion of having personal judgement when you die, a sort of “continuous parole board” and the Final Judgement. But it’s a matter of piety, not dogma: popular belief, not official belief. And even that focuses on what happens between death and getting into Heaven: “what happens after the end of all time” is again one of those questions which don’t really make much sense. How can you say “after” in a time-based way of thinking, when the “after” is outside time?

Those who reject the Divine Mercy, and it is forever if they insist in forever rejecting the Divine Mercy. We are all sinners, it is only through His Mercy that we are accepted/accept ourselves into Heaven.

The RCC does have procedures for saying “we figure this person is in Heaven”, but doesn’t have them for saying “we figure this person is in Hell”. The second is between God and that person.

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Disclaimer: I am not a Jehovah’s Witness, but I’ve studied their beliefs in order to debate them.

  1. The soul is created, and dies with the body.
  2. Satan was created by God as an angel, and is currently running this world until Jesus gets back.
  3. Everybody stays in the grave until Jesus comes back. “Hell” is not a special place, but only the grave.
  4. True believers will live on an earthly paradise. 144,000 will rule in heave.
  5. Everyone not included in the answer to #4 will stay in the grave, which is hell.
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As for baptism, the Catholic position is that it is a sacrament, and that the sacraments are channels for God’s grace, but God is God, and does not need to restrict Himself to the usual channels if He doesn’t want to. All people are born with the stain of Original Sin. Baptism completely erases all sin from a soul, including Original Sin. It’s possible to gain more stains after baptism, from ordinary sins that people commit, and that’s why we also have the Sacrament of Reconciliation (“going to confession”), but the Original Sin, at least, won’t come back after baptism. It’s possible to go to Heaven without baptism (because God), but we don’t know any details of that, and so it’s best to play it safe and baptize anyway.

Also by Catholic belief, baptism is really, really easy. While it properly should be done by a priest, it can be validly done by literally anyone, even an atheist: All that is needed is water and a sincere intent to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As such, Catholics recognize the baptisms of most other Christian sects as valid (though this is often not reciprocal, and Mormon baptisms are usually not recognized, because the Mormon understanding of the Trinity is so different).

There are also some extraordinary circumstances that count as baptism, even though it might not appear that baptism ever occurs. If someone sincerely intends to be baptized, but for some reason dies before they get a chance, that’s called “baptism of desire”, and if someone dies for the faith before they’re baptized, that’s “baptism of blood”.

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As mentioned, every answer depends on the sect/denomination. For instance, for the Southern Baptists (the one I was raised in) I would say:

1.) Created at the moment of conception.

2.) Angel who rebelled against God. Angels being beings created by God before Genesis 1:1.
3.) Straight to Hell/Heaven.
4.) I don’t think Southern Baptists were fully agreed on pre-/mid-/-post Tribulations Rapture. IIRC the Judgement takes place after the Millennial Reign.

5.) Everyone who is above an “age of accountability” (not officially defined but often concidered to be 12) who has not been Born Again. (For details of being “Born Again”, consult the back pages of any Chick Tract.)

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My background is United Methodist, but I’m not sure how much of my Sunday school education (both as a child and adult) was rooted in the official theology. Methodists are not dogmatic about these things.

  1. Where do souls/spirits come from?
    Souls and spirits are simply the part of you that remains of you once your body has died. They come from the same place as your body: an outgrown of your parents. God creates your soul in the same sense that he creates you.

  2. Where does Satan come from?
    Satan does not play much of a role in Methodism. I’d say he’s a spiritual representative of the rejection of God.

  3. After a person died, what happens to them while waiting for the resurrection?
    There’s no waiting–time is an earthly concern. Either you accept God or you reject God. Choose wisely. :smiley:

  4. Does everyone get resurrected at the Second Coming? When are people judged?
    The Second Coming also does not a play a big role in Methodism. God is waiting now, either accept or reject him.

  5. What sort of people go to hell, and is it forever? How universal is (or was) that belief? Once in hell, are you there forever?
    Hell is not really important either, it’s simply a rejection of God. Heaven is the presence of God. We may choose to face God at any time (or turn away, as well).

Judgement exclusively belongs to the Father. It is impossible for us to judge others or even ourselves. That said, the path to salvation is clear but difficult. We must love ourselves and one another. Those who do so know the Son and act in his name.

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I thought that the whole concept of heaven and hell is no longer supported by the modern church, at least the Anglican part of it. Priests don’t stand in pulpits telling the congregation that they are all sinners and destined for the fiery pit.

The early leaders invented Satan as the opposite of God; once again he/she is no longer a feature of modern theology.

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What “early leaders”? Satan is mentioned in various places throughout the Bible (though never with a clear explanation of where Satan “comes from”) and is depicted as being opposed to God, but certainly not as “the opposite of God” in an equal-but-opposite sort of way. That sort of thinking was a feature of dualism/Manichaeism but certainly not Christianity (nor Judaism nor Islam).

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Re: the bolded. What about Ray Walston’s line in Damn Yankees where he said wives gave him more trouble than the Methodist Church (meaning, of course, that the Methodist Church gave him plenty of trouble)?

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The much older versions of Christianity (my experience is with Roman Catholicism, but I assume Eastern Orthodox etc. are similar) -

they have concocted assorted doctrines “bolted on” to the original teachings of the gospels and St. Paul. Numbers like 3 and 7 seem to be special. There’s the Trinity (allegedly made up by St. Paul as an attractor to the gentile crowd, to counter similar mysticism from competing cults - “God is one but God is three. How is that possible? It’s a mystery.” They’ve added the 14 stations of the cross, the 7 sacraments and 7 deadly sins, the whole process of canonizing saints (i.e. certifying that the person is a saint) not to mention all the apocryphal saints that may or may not have existed, like St. Christopher. The center of the whole religion is summed up in that “God sent his son who suffered and died for our sins so that we can be saved and join him in heaven…”

The embellishment of Satan aka. Lucifer, the fallen angel who opposed God and was banished, which has lead to a whole folklore of extended angels and demons fighting over the kingdom of God and the souls of men. it’s as if every monk who got bored added a new piece to whatever part of the religion struck their fancy.

As I understand, the whole “souls” thing and where they go after death is a Greek concept - the original Hebrew testament had people who died basically “sleeping” until the final judgement. Since St. Paul was living mainly in the Greek world, he seems to have adopted this concept and run with it. Later doctrinal embellishments added details to heaven, hell, purgatory - and conveniently, the church’s selling of indulgences or “get out of Purgatory (not free)” cards, which was the annoyance that triggered Martin Luther and the reformation. But generally, bad folks either go to Hell, or there’s a chance they will be saved, so they do less than eternity in Purgatory, to eventually earn a spot in Heaven. Saints in heaven have the ear of Jesus/Godd (the same only different) so you pray to saints to intercede for you… then someone once devised the concept of Limbo where the souls of innocents who never got baptized go. Baptism washes away original sin which … heck, you could write books and books about this stuff, none of it base on determinable facts.

Once you decide souls exist, of course you have to explain where they come form and where they go and when and how. The concept was formed that the soul was created at the moment of conception, thus explaining why the Catholics and fundamentalist religions are so opposed to any form of abortion.

Much of this is lost on my wife who was raised Baptist - they seem to rely more on reading the gospel to draw their own conclusions and reject the extra 2000 years of doctrinal embellishments. When we visit cathedrals in Europe, I have to explain all the whatnots and bits regarding the contents and artwork. She’d never heard of the stations of the cross.

As mentioned, the Catholics don’t dwell much on the second coming except to say it will happen one day. Protestant fundamentalists seem to be the ones obsessed about that. IIRC the idea is that on the day of judgement, when Gabriel blows his horn (more embellishment - angel, musical instrument) all souls wake up to be judged. Which, I think, is the subject of the end wall painting in the Sistine Chapel.

Nobody at Catholic Sunday School ever explained to me details like why some people would go straight to hell but then there’s a future judgement day… do they get an appeal, or is it simply to reaffirm their sentence? When the Judgment happens, does everyone in Purgatory go to Heaven, or do some still have to serve out sentences? and so on…

When we visited Lhasa one of the fun spectacles was watching Buddhist monks having noisy debates about doctrinal points. I imagine there was the same sort of lively debates in Europe during the early church and middle ages, except with the added bonus that one ones arguing on the wrong side were thus Heretics and could be burned at the stake…

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Written in 1955 and of course, a work of fiction. The Methodist Church (although such an entity doesn’t exist anymore. In 1968, it became the United Methodist Church) like most mainline denominations leans modernist theologically. Modernist theology typically takes a historic-critical view of Biblical interpretation that says that the Bible was written not as a timeless piece of truth, but rather a particular viewpoint from a particular time. This means it is largely a non-literal work, that contains truth, but doesn’t necessarily represent a literal history of the world. As such, Biblical references to Satan could be understood to be a real being, but there is no obligation for United Methodists to think so. United Methodists as a general rule are what might be called ‘live and let live’ Christians. There are some fairly rigid guidelines, but they are few and far between. Most theological statements are accepted as differing interpretations that are good for discussion and hopefully help us on our journey. Any claim on Satan’s existence or his attributes is really up to the individual to figure out and decide what they think is true. The church would likely clap you on the back regardless of where you stood on the position and say, “Is that stance helping you love God and serve others? If so, then I’m glad that it has helped you on your faith journey.”

I would say that the standard view of Satan among United Methodists is largely to not think about him/it at all. Maybe you could corner them on a statement, but it would probably be something like the term Satan is simply a useful term to personify the evil that exists in the world. Like I said though, there are UMs that certainly see Satan as a fallen angel going about looking to devour souls. I would assume that UMs from the global south would probably be more likely to hold the latter view, while American and European UMs probably the former.

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Are there Protestants who would similarly say that God is a metaphor for our desire/ability to prioritize the wants of others above our own and is not a “being” at all?

While it’s not what you said, some progressive Christians will similarly describe Hell as a metaphor for a state of mind. The question that kinda suggests itself after that is: “What about about Heaven then? Is it also a state of mind?” Are there Christians denominations or movements that believe that?

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Conservative Catholic answering:

  1. Where do souls/spirits come from?

God’s creates them at conception.

  1. Where does Satan come from?

He is Lucifer, the angel that rebelled against God.

  1. After a person died, what happens to them while waiting for the resurrection?

Yo go to Heaven, Prugatory,or Hell, immediately.

  1. Does everyone get resurrected at the Second Coming? When are people judged?

Everyoone is judged publicly, pnly the rigtheous live on the New World.

  1. What sort of people go to hell, and is it forever?

¨People who die in a state of mortal sin. For non-Catholics too, but God decided on your specific circumstances.

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Just as an aside, Pleonast largely gets United Methodist doctrine correct.
There is no official teaching on either of the first two points.

The third point there is official teaching - it is “We have no idea, but we have faith that Christ will take care of us.”

The fourth point is that we do have an official teaching that Christ will return to judge everyone. We also immediately follow that with saying that we should not focus on the second coming and that we should instead care about living out the results of the first coming. Our concern should be on the practical aspect of getting closer to God and loving our neighbors rather than speculating about the future. There is an assurance that Christ cares for us and the world and that should be enough for us. Our job is to be practical people dedicated to improving our lives and the lives of people around us in accordance with Christ’s will. The world will end when it ends and what happens will happen and writing fiction stories in our heads about it doesn’t benefit anyone.

The fifth point is a tough one. The EUB (one of the two denominations that formed the United Methodist Church) did have in its by-laws a belief in eternal condemnation, so as part of the merger, it is technically in our by-laws. I think that there is probably a wide-spread belief that Heaven is a place where people want to do God’s will and live in harmony with God. A place of selflessness. The corollary is that there will be people that choose not to exist in that state and there must be a place where they can exist since we typically believe in an eternal soul. That place would be Hell. Adam Hamilton (a major UM moderate) pictures it as a place where basically humans can behave how they want without any grace in the world. Basically a place ruled by selfishness and the desire to succeed at the expense of others. As Sartre might put it, he views “Hell as Other People.” He also believes that Hell is not a permanent place and that as CSLewis puts it, “The doors are locked from the inside.” He also believes that there are people who will never choose to open that door. Of course, Adam Hamilton doesn’t speak for the church as a whole and there are plenty of UMs that don’t believe in Hell at all and the church by and large doesn’t care.

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I’m sure there are. This is an atypical view though. When you look at the liberal side of the church, there becomes a point where you start to definitionally move to something other than Christian. There are very few ‘atheist’ Christians, but I’m sure that there are some that exist.

I think that you would find it difficult to find a Christian denomination that would say that (I know of none), though you might find quite a few Christians themselves. The denominations that would lean toward that way of thinking would likely be the kinds of denominations that wouldn’t insist that you believe a particular way about such things. Catholics are actually pretty close to that teaching. When you’re dealing with transcendence, describing what are inherently non-physical things with imagery like locations and times is problematic.

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John Shelby Spong might be an example of an “atheist Christian”—I’m not sure.