Christian theology question

Factual Questions
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I didn’t want to contaminate Catholic theology question - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board because when I read it, it was so perfectly on topic. But it reminded me of something. So…

I was taught in (Catholic) primary school that, if you are bound for Heaven, you’ll go to Purgatory when you die because you will most likely be unshrived to some extent. This you will have to endure for a time before being admitted to Heaven. Alternatively, you’ll wake up in Hell. (is this just for kids or is it official?)

In other doctrines you are Judged without delay and consigned accordingly, either to Heaven or to Hell.

Other doctrines hold that there is a Judgement Day, in the future.

Catholics and (for all I know) other Christians want to believe they can pray for intercession on behalf of the dead - and that might help the soul they are praying for to get into Heaven.

Doctrinally, how is this worked out when the souls might already have been judged?

BTW - would someone please advise me how to make that link look like my text, eg “this link”?

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One way to insert a url with alternative text is to click on the funny globe icon with a chain "link’ in the middle of the icon bars on the Reply window. First it pops up a place to insert the text you want displayed. Then, when you have clicked OK, it provides a box into which to insert the url.

The various judgment scenarios are specualted upon in different ways, but one of the concepts that the church relies upon is that eternity is outside time. Therefore, praying for a person is valid on any occasion. (There used to be an old joke about joining St. Monica and praying for the conversion of her son (whom we now call St. Augustine).)

I am not much into worrying about the various judgment scenarios, so I rarely address it, but I presented a general outline on the Catholic take on the issues of sin, reconciliation, purgatory, etc. a number of months ago in this thread.

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[QUOTE=harrylentil]
Catholics and (for all I know) other Christians want to believe they can pray for intercession on behalf of the dead - and that might help the soul they are praying for to get into Heaven.

Doctrinally, how is this worked out when the souls might already have been judged?
[/QUOTE]

To the best of my knowledge, most Protestant churches hold that people are assigned to heaven or hell at the moment of death. Since also - to the best of my knowledge - all Christian denominations believe in the Last Judgement, those are assignments which could theoretically be viewed as provisional. That largely depends upon how one interprets the book of Revelation.

However, no Protestant denomination about which I know enough to say believes that praying for a dead person will affect that person’s final destination. Why? Because we believe that is a matter strictly between that person and God; not subject to - um - influence (I can’t find a good word choice here). We do, however, believe most devoutly in praying for the souls of the living. (“we” in all above cases being members of those denominations I know about who subscribe to the official theologies of said groups).

Caution: This particular subject is one on which a great many devout Christians have very strong opinions. Consequently, there is a chance that this thread may be reassigned to Great Debates. It probably depends on how many responses you get. We can hope that everybody exercises their self-control, of course. :slight_smile: A quiet, calm discussion would be lovely.

The denominations about which I have either first- (my own experience or membership) or second-hand knowledge (via near relatives) are Pentecostal (all the major denominations thereof), Evangelical Presbyterian, and Baptist. There are more Baptist organizations than I have relatives of that description, however, and I’m not sure how closely they agree on this subject. They do appear to mainly agree, however. We’ll see if any speak up.

The Mormons maintain that they are a Christian denomination, and they appear to have some views - unique among Christians - on the subject of post-demise destination re-determination. I am, however, definitely not qualified to comment thereon.

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[QUOTE=harrylentil]
(is this just for kids or is it official?)
[/QUOTE]

Yes, and yes.

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[QUOTE=tygerbryght]
To the best of my knowledge, most Protestant churches hold that people are assigned to heaven or hell at the moment of death. Since also - to the best of my knowledge - all Christian denominations believe in the Last Judgement, those are assignments which could theoretically be viewed as provisional. That largely depends upon how one interprets the book of Revelation.
[/quote]

In the Methodist church that I grew up in, the Last Judgment was mostly a judgment of the people who’d been living at the time- the dead had already been judged, so no need to judge them.

I don’t know if this is the official Methodist take on it, or if it’s one person’s interpretation that they told me about, or if it’s my misunderstanding of someone’s interpretation.

We were definitely not taught that praying for a dead person could affect their final destination.

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[QUOTE=tygerbryght]
The Mormons maintain that they are a Christian denomination, and they appear to have some views - unique among Christians - on the subject of post-demise destination re-determination. I am, however, definitely not qualified to comment thereon.
[/QUOTE]

Having been raised Mormon, I think I’m qualified, so I’ll go ahead and comment thereon.

In Mormonism:

We all existed as eternal “intelligence” in the beginning. Then the Eternal Father (and presumably an Eternal Mother) somehow changed us from plain “intelligence” into their spirit children, each with a separate and distinct spirit body. Jehovah was the first spirit child, and he was the greatest one of us all, and it was he who became Jesus Christ in mortality.

In this pre-existence, we lived with our eternal parents and grew in wisdom and knowledge until we had learned everything we could there. To progress further, we needed to get a physical body and be tested away from our heavenly parents.

Jesus proposed a plan where everybody would have free will, but this would allow us to sin, and once we’d sinned, we wouldn’t be able to return to the presence of our Heaveny Father. So Jesus proposed that a savior be sent to atone for the wrong choices our free will allowed us to make; we could choose to accept or deny this atonement, and if we accepted it, our sins would be wiped clean and we could return to the presence of our heavenly parents and become like them.

Lucifer, another really powerful and wise spirit child, proposed a different plan wherein we wouldn’t have free will, but would be obligated to make correct choices, allowing us all to be saved and return sin-free.

Heavenly Father liked the first plan, and chose Jesus to be the savior.

Lucifer got angry and there was a “war in heaven,” wherein fully one-third of the spirit children chose to follow Lucifer instead of Jesus. They were cast down to earth and lost their chance to obtain a physical body. Lucifer became Satan, the devil, and he and his angels try to get us to do bad things.

We, however, chose the right path, following Jesus – we “kept our first estate,” is the term – and we got to be born. It used to be taught that black people were descendants of Cain and were born cursed, and thus were unable to receive the priesthood or go to the temple, because they were “less valiant” in the pre-existence, which was often interpreted as “they were neutral in the war in heaven, rather than fighting for Jesus’s plan,” but this wasn’t Official Doctrine, and the ban on priesthood-ordaining was ended in 1978.

Anyway, we kept our first estate and obtained a physical body and are tested, and eventually we die.

When you die, your spirit goes to either “spirit prison” or “paradise,” which basically correspond to the traditional Christian heaven and hell, but are only temporary locations where the good folks (paradise) go out and do missionary work among the nonbelievers and bad folks (spirit prison) to try to convert them to Mormonism. When Jesus’s body was lying in the tomb, before he was resurrected on the third day, he was busy organizing missionary work in the spirit world.

Eventually, there’s a universal resurrection, which is called the gift of immortality, which everybody gets: the spirits in prison and paradise are all joined up with their physical bodies again, never to be separated. In Mormonism, a “soul” is a spirit joined to a physical body, and the spirits in spirit prison and even those in paradise will be really happy to have their bodies back, and will have looked at their time as spirits as a very bad thing.

And they are then subject to final judgment; everybody[sup]1[/sup] is assigned to one of three “kingdoms of glory” at this point:

  1. The really-good-and-also-saved Mormons go to the celestial kingdom, the highest kingdom of glory, where they live in the presence of the Eternal Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. The Father and Son both have exalted physical bodies there, and presumably the Holy Ghost will get his body by then too. People in this highest of kingdoms can visit people in the lower two kingdoms, also. The glory of the celestial kingdom is supposed to be comparable to the glory of the sun. This planet (Earth) is supposed to eventually be transformed into the celestial kingdom, IIRC.

1.a. The very best Mormons, who married eternally in the temple, will go to the highest level of the celestial kingdom, where they will be exalted to godhood and produce spirit children of their own, continuing the cycle of producing children and raising them up to perfection and exaltation (godhood) for eternity.

1.b. Other excellent-but-not-married-eternally Mormons will go to the second level of the celestial kingdom, where they will serve the highest-exalted people as ministering angels.

  1. Good people who never accepted Mormonism (in mortality OR in spirit prison) will go to the terrestrial kingdom, which is comparable to the glory of the moon, and where you can be in the presence of Jesus and the Holy Ghost but not the Father. It’s often said that traditional Christian heaven is like the terrestrial kingdom, in that you don’t reproduce there. (I’ve heard several people try to motivate others to be good by “reminding” them that you only get your reproductive organs in eternity if you make it to the celestial kingdom, but that isn’t Official Doctrine.) People here can visit the lowest kingdom, but NOT the celestial kingdom.

  2. Everybody else – murderers, adulterers, rapists, liars, and people who refused to believe in God and whatnot – goes to the lowest degree of glory, the telestial kingdom, comparable to the glory of the stars. People here can be in the presence of the Holy Ghost, but not Jesus or the Father. And they don’t get to visit anybody else, since they’re the lowest kingdom and all. It’s still supposed to be vastly superior to this life, and Joseph Smith said that if people could get one glimpse of the glory and awesomeness (paraphrased) of the telestial kingdom, they’d be killing themselves to get there.

[sup]1[/sup]Satan and his angels, plus the very worst of the worst people from here in mortality – people who have committed the unforgivable sin of “denying the Holy Ghost,” which used to mean ex-Mormons but doesn’t necessarily mean every ex-Mormon now, only the ones who got an absolute testimony from the Holy Ghost that Mormonism is true and then denied it for whatever reason … they don’t get a kingdom of glory. They’re called “sons of perdition” and get cast into “outer darkness,” which has no glory and is just cold and dark, and has no “intelligence” either. However, those who were born and resurrected will still have their physical bodies, and the bodies will make them more powerful than the bodiless spirits like Satan and his angels, so the sons of perdition will reign over Satan and his angels.

Okay, I think that’s a pretty good summary of Mormon views on the subject.

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[QUOTE=chorpler]
Having been raised Mormon, I think I’m qualified, so I’ll go ahead and comment thereon.
…
Okay, I think that’s a pretty good summary of Mormon views on the subject.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for filling us in.

I, for one, have learned a bunch today. I didn’t know any of this. I knew - vaguely - about the “baptism for the dead” thing (which I didn’t see mentioned), but mostly because of Jewish objections to it being done for Holocaust victims.

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[QUOTE=tygerbryght]
Thanks for filling us in.

I, for one, have learned a bunch today. I didn’t know any of this. I knew - vaguely - about the “baptism for the dead” thing (which I didn’t see mentioned), but mostly because of Jewish objections to it being done for Holocaust victims.
[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, I probably should have mentioned that. In Mormon theology, you have to be baptized to be a member and go to the celestial kingdom (excluding babies and other people who aren’t responsible for their actions), and then you have to go through the endowment ritual in the temple as well, in order to make it to the celestial kingdom. And of course you have to be sealed to a spouse in the temple to make it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

But people who died without the opportunity to go through these Mormon rituals can’t get them done in spirit prison – for some reason, they have to be done in mortality.

So the vast majority of work in the temples is done by people going through, not for themselves, but on behalf of people who are dead. Young kids go and get baptized in a big font for about 20-30 people in a row (baptism must be by full and complete immersion each time), and adults go through the endowment, and sealing, and a couple of other rituals, for dead people. They assign you a name, and you go through whatever ceremony you’re there to do, and they mark that name done in the big ancestral history files.

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Currently active member of the LDS church checking in.

chorpler has a pretty good summary, but I would clarify a few points:

[QUOTE=chorpler]
It used to be taught that black people were descendants of Cain and were born cursed, and thus were unable to receive the priesthood or go to the temple, because they were “less valiant” in the pre-existence, which was often interpreted as “they were neutral in the war in heaven, rather than fighting for Jesus’s plan,” but this wasn’t Official Doctrine, and the ban on priesthood-ordaining was ended in 1978.
[/QUOTE]

I would emphasize that this was never the official doctrine of the church. There were a number of members of the LDS church who believed this (including some in leadership roles), but they were using “folk-wisdom” and, in one very public case, were asked to disavow previous writings on the subject. This is not now, nor has it ever been official church doctrine.

[QUOTE=chorpler]
In Mormonism, a “soul” is a spirit joined to a physical body, and the spirits in spirit prison and even those in paradise will be really happy to have their bodies back, and will have looked at their time as spirits as a very bad thing.
[/QUOTE]

Gotta say, I’ve never heard any word, one way or another, about how we would feel after death, and have never heard that the time after mortality would be considered a “very bad thing”. I’ve always understood it to be another necessary step in the plan of salvation.

[QUOTE=chorpler]
and presumably the Holy Ghost will get his body by then too.
[/QUOTE]

I have never heard official doctrine concerning this one way or another.

[QUOTE=chorpler]
(I’ve heard several people try to motivate others to be good by “reminding” them that you only get your reproductive organs in eternity if you make it to the celestial kingdom, but that isn’t Official Doctrine.)
[/QUOTE]

THat can’t be emphasized enough. Not official doctrine!!

[QUOTE=chorpler]
which used to mean ex-Mormons but doesn’t necessarily mean every ex-Mormon now, only the ones who got an absolute testimony from the Holy Ghost that Mormonism is true and then denied it for whatever reason
[/QUOTE]

That’s different than I was taught. I have always been taught that the number of “sons of perdition” were almost infinitely small. I have never even heard of the idea that all ex-members, or even any ex-members, would qualify.

Otherwise, my nit-picking aside, I would thank chorpler for a fairly accurate overview.

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[QUOTE=Reloy3]
Currently active member of the LDS church checking in.

I would emphasize that this was never the official doctrine of the church. There were a number of members of the LDS church who believed this (including some in leadership roles), but they were using “folk-wisdom” and, in one very public case, were asked to disavow previous writings on the subject. This is not now, nor has it ever been official church doctrine.
[/quote]

On the other hand, when it’s being taught by the prophet, it might as well be official doctrine. There were rumors that a complete disavowal of the whole “black people are Cain’s descendants and were less valiant in the pre-existance” thing was in the works back in the late 1990’s / early 2000’s, but the Los Angeles Times got wind of it and published it, and that was the end of that. There are, of course, still racist Mormons who believe it, and plenty of black Mormons who hope that it will be officially disavowed.

I meant that the spirits are supposed to have felt that their time without bodies was a “very bad thing” in that they were no longer complete. The actual quote, from D&C 138:50, is “For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.” Or, as I was taught, we’ll long for the rejoining of our spirits with our bodies. I just couldn’t think of a better way to paraphrase “a bondage.”

Yeah, that’s what I was taught too, but for some reason I had the idea that it was more common back in the early days to call everybody who left a “son of perdition.” I appear to have been mistaken. But in my defense, the “qualification” for being a “son of perdition” is basically just “you have to commit the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Ghost after having had a perfect witness,” so it’s pretty subjective.