Mormons: Automatic Heaven before Age 8?

[RitterSport]

In this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=844860), someone states that one Mormon belief is that anyone who dies before age 8 gets an automatic pass to heaven. The inference is then made that a mass murder in an elementary school is in some ways an act of love – sending all those kids to automatic heaven for eternity.

HurricaneDitka disagrees. He states (sorry, I can’t figure out how to get the original quote from the other thread):

It shouldn’t be necessary to state this, but given you WAG’s, let me be perfectly clear: None of the Mormons I know would endorse slaughtering an elementary school.

That seems pretty obvious. No one likes a mass school shooting, except the shooter I guess. But, the question is why? In fact, nate responds with:

Of course not, that would be horrific. BUT, if they truly believed their religion it really shouldn’t be horrific but lucky. If after 8 years old you are fit to be judged by your Heavenly Father, but before that day you’d have a free pass to the best heaven, logic would dictate that mass-murder of these kids was actually a very good thing to happen. Sure, you’d suffer here on Earth because of humanly feelings of sadness and anger, but that is pretty meaningless in the span of your whole existence.

So, HD comes back with:

I don’t want to divert us too far from the topic, but you’re missing some important understanding about Mormon doctrine, like the war in heaven and the purpose of life.

He’s right, of course, that the topic is a hijack to that other thread. I’m interested in exploring this, though. I know almost nothing about the Mormon religion. I probably know less than nothing, since everything I’ve learned comes from South Park or their musical. I think there’s something about getting your own planet when you die? No caffeine (except for those who drink diet soda), no alcohol, and there must be something about being friendly, because every Mormon I’ve ever met has been a really nice person.

We have more than one Mormon on this site, and some ex-Mormons (but please keep this positive), so feel free to jump in. Can you help me explore the implication of a guaranteed ticket to Heaven and why killing someone with that ticket isn’t actually a good thing in a way? And, can you explain the war in heaven and purpose of life, from a Mormon perspective?

Thanks!

[running_coach]

To get quotes from other threads, use the multi quote.
When you get to the reply box, you will see this under the box.

You have selected 1 post that is not part of this thread. Quote this post as well, or deselect this post.

[RitterSport]

@running_coach

To get quotes from other threads, use the multi quote.
When you get to the reply box, you will see this under the box.

Thanks! Here are the original quotes:

@HurricaneDitka

…It shouldn’t be necessary to state this, but given you WAG’s, let me be perfectly clear: None of the Mormons I know would endorse slaughtering an elementary school.

@nate

Of course not, that would be horrific. BUT, if they truly believed their religion it really shouldn’t be horrific but lucky. If after 8 years old you are fit to be judged by your Heavenly Father, but before that day you’d have a free pass to the best heaven, logic would dictate that mass-murder of these kids was actually a very good thing to happen. Sure, you’d suffer here on Earth because of humanly feelings of sadness and anger, but that is pretty meaningless in the span of your whole existence.

@HurricaneDitka

I don’t want to divert us too far from the topic, but you’re missing some important understanding about Mormon doctrine, like the war in heaven and the purpose of life.

I’ve edited the top one slightly to remove an irrelevant comment.

[Darren_Garrison]

Some other Christian sects have the concept of an “age of accountability”, too. I used to hear it being 12.

[Morgenstern]

Mormon’s believe almost everyone gets a pass to an eternal reward. It’s just that some earn a higher reward in an even better place.
Think coach, business, and first class. Regardless, the first class only gets there a few seconds sooner. But they all get there in the end.
Hell is being cast into eternal darkness. IE, pretty much what atheists think will happen after death. No fire, no pain, nothing.

[Morgenstern]

n/m wrong forum for that

[QuickSilver]

Anybody who thinks kids under 8 should get an unconditional free pass to heaven has never been a first grader. Some of the biggest bastards I’ve known in my life were 7 year olds just outside the line of sight of a responsible adult.

[HurricaneDitka]

Thanks for starting a separate thread on the subject. I’ll do my best to explain it, to the best of my knowledge.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@HurricaneDitka

Thanks for starting a separate thread on the subject. I’ll do my best to explain it, to the best of my knowledge.

I’m not sure you can - the basic question goes to the irrational heart of religion. It’s basically a variation of the Problem of Evil, in which the basic premises of a faith are examined and found to be contradictory. You can try handwaving it away by saying some version of “Oh, God doesn’t work that way” or “That’s not what the religion actually means” but the core ideas and their obvious conflicts remain.

[HurricaneDitka]

First off: the war in heaven. Mormon belief is that before this earthly life we dwelt with our Heavenly Father in the pre-mortal existence. Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer presented competing plans for helping mankind achieve salvation. There were several key differences, but one of the most important ones was what we call “agency” (the freedom to choose for ourselves). Christ wanted man to have agency, and offer himself as the Savior so that man could repent. Lucifer wanted to take away man’s agency and force them to be righteous, thereby ensuring that none would be lost.

Slaughtering an elementary school full of children is not only a greivois sin, but it’s something roughly approximating Lucifer’s plan: I’m going to take away their agency so that they don’t have a chance to make a mistake and miss out on going to heaven.

Mormons believe those that chose Satan’s plan are angels of the devil, so you can imagine how the elementary school plan looks to me.

[HurricaneDitka]

Second off: the purpose of life. Mormons believe we’ve left the pre-mortal existence with our Heavenly Father to come to earth, gain a physical body, and grow (gain experience through facing temptation, suffering from our shortcomings, repenting, and learning to become more Christ-like). Killing kids before they have chances to do fall into sin deprives them of this opportunity to learn and grow.

[QuickSilver]

So, god lost complete control of the situation. You know, the more I hear about god, the more incompetent he shows himself to be.

That said, I’m with you, H-D. It’s bad to shoot up elementary schools.

[Morgenstern]

One more thing. It’s not just Mormon kids who get a pass to heaven <8. All kids do, even the children of Atheist.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I get that by Mormon doctrine as described by Ditka, the hypothetical school-shooter is not going to viewed favourably by God, but the hypothetical slaughtered kids* do* go to heaven, no? I could easily see a person reasoning that it’s worth it to martyr themselves and suffers God’s torments for eternity to ensure a bunch of first- and second-graders get that reward.

[Flyer]

@Darren_Garrison

Some other Christian sects have the concept of an “age of accountability”, too. I used to hear it being 12.

I think it’s generally considered to be 7. Although it varies somewhat depending on how smart the child is, and how much they’ve been taught.

[nate]

@HurricaneDitka

Christ wanted man to have agency, and offer himself as the Savior so that man could repent. Lucifer wanted to take away man’s agency and force them to be righteous, thereby ensuring that none would be lost.

Seems to me that they chose the wrong plan. Christ has a good name, but suppose you change his name to Curtis. Lucifer has a bad rap, but suppose you replace his name with Larry.

Larry’s plan is that everyone goes to heaven, Curtis wants everyone to play some game so some to go to Heaven and some to go to Hell and the rules of this game are obscure, confusing and at times, contradictory. I like Larry’s plan.

[HurricaneDitka]

@nate

… Larry’s plan is that everyone goes to heaven, Curtis wants everyone to play some game so some to go to Heaven and some to go to Hell and the rules of this game are obscure, confusing and at times, contradictory. I like Larry’s plan.

Larry’s plan doesn’t involve any actual learning or growing. It’s like lifting weights without any weights. To quote from my earlier link about the purpose of life:

But there was a limit to our progression in that heavenly home, and much like Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden, we had to leave the presence of God in order to fulfill our potential—to test ourselves using a mortal body and the agency we gained by choosing to come to earth. In doing so we knew we would face pain and hardship, but we also knew that opposition was essential for us to achieve our potential. … He would create an earth where we would live away from His presence for a time. We would gain a physical body. We would experience both joy and sorrow, and we would make choices that would shape our eternal character. This time on earth is both a classroom and a test, and only we can determine how well we perform.

The goal of our earthly test is to return to our Heavenly Father as a more intelligent, more mature, and more compassionate being—to be more like Him.

[Razncain]

The goal of our earthly test is to return to our Heavenly Father as a more intelligent, more mature, and more compassionate being—to be more like Him.

I dunno, Hurricane, you’re aware of what Mark Twain wrote when the priest suggested to another they need to be more like Him, right?

[Morgenstern]

@nate

Seems to me that they chose the wrong plan. Christ has a good name, but suppose you change his name to Curtis. Lucifer has a bad rap, but suppose you replace his name with Larry.

Larry’s plan is that everyone goes to heaven, Curtis wants everyone to play some game so some to go to Heaven and some to go to Hell and the rules of this game are obscure, confusing and at times, contradictory. I like Larry’s plan.

You’re assuming that there is a hell. Hell is a misunderstanding of the concept of damnation. Damnation is not a physical hell, instead, it’s the eternal absence of the Godhead. No fire, no Sulphur, no beast, no brimstone, just a lonely, dark existence that lasts a very long time.

[John_Mace]

@Bryan_Ekers

I get that by Mormon doctrine as described by Ditka, the hypothetical school-shooter is not going to viewed favourably by God, but the hypothetical slaughtered kids* do* go to heaven, no? I could easily see a person reasoning that it’s worth it to martyr themselves and suffers God’s torments for eternity to ensure a bunch of first- and second-graders get that reward.

I think what you’re describing is, in principle, standard Christian doctrine and not unique to the LDS sect. As kids in Catholic school the 60s, we were taught that babies dying before Baptism went to Limbo, but that concept has been questioned by the RCC, whose official position now is “we don’t know what happens, but we hope they are ‘saved’”.