But, nothingness is still infinitely worse (literally) than an eternity of bliss, right? The Lucifer and Christ war put us into a bizarre backwards-Pascal’s wager situation. Strained analogy coming: Pascal said, hey, you should believe in God because if you don’t and you’re wrong, you spend an eternity in hell. Christ said, let’s gamble with their eternal souls so that some will come back smarter, etc., and some will mess up and we’ll lose them forever.
Anyway, I agree that the shooter is a monster, but I still don’t see how he’s not doing the kids a favor. They miss out on some growth opportunities, but are guaranteed eternal bliss rather than eternal nothingness.
You’re seeing this wrong. EVERYONE is going to heaven. You, me, Joe, even the atheist reading this. We’re going to heaven. Why, because we choose the correct side in heaven. How do I know that? Because you’re reading this. you have a physical body. Our reward for choosing the correct side of the heavenly battle is a body of flesh that can be resurrected to eternal life. There is one way to lose this gift. That is, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That being "having a perfect knowledge (of the Godhead) and thereafter denying it. That basically required telling God to his face you don’t believe in his plan.
So, the concept of helping these <8 yr old kids get to heaven is absurd. They already have that ticket and it’s good for life.
I don’t get how the hypothetical school shooter doesn’t also get to heaven, then, especially if he’s a believer and I am not. Is a school shooting inherently a blasphemy against the holy spirit?
I must be missing something here. Are you saying that it’s Mormon belief that everyone goes to heaven unless they denounce God while in his presence? I feel like this is at odds with what HD is saying about agency and the risks involved. Also, I don’t understand why some Mormon groups were baptizing non-Mormons in the grave – what would be the point if everyone is already saved.
Is this really Mormon dogma? Why do they go door-to-door, then? Why try and convert people? Why abstain from alcohol and caffeine?
No. The blasphemy I spoke is not a sin against man, but a sin against the divinity of the Godhead. Assume the Pope was sitting in his suite. He sees Jesus sitting on his bed and spends the night talking to Jesus, watching Jesus make wine out of the water, sees him levitate across the room to close the drapes, turns a ceramic dove into a live one, and explain the true meaning of Revelations. That’s getting close to a perfect knowledge of the Godhead. More than faith, more than belief, knowledge that is unquestionable. If the pope chooses to turn his back on the Godhead thereafter, he’s committing the unpardonable sin. Mark wrote …But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.
If a mass murder dies, without repenting, he’s basically limited to one of those lower places. Better than damnation, but not first class. After all, he chose the right side eons ago.
If a mass murderer repents and is truly sorry for his sins, asks for forgiven, and accepts Christianity, he’s basically forgiven. What level of heaven does he see? I don’t know, he’s without sin so he could go far.
Mormon doctrine isn’t quite so black and white as Heaven vs Hell. There are “kingdoms of glory”. Morgenstern’s analogy about first class vs business vs coach is pretty apt. The top degree of glory, the “best Heaven” is called the Celestial Kingdom. That’s sort of the “goal” of Mormonism: get to the Celestial Kingdom.
From (Mormon scripture) D&C 76
We want everyone, or at least as many as we can, experience that. To do so, they’ll have to be baptized, accept the Gospel, repent of their sins, etc.
The runners-up go to the “Terrestrial Kingdom”:
and then the third-place finishers go to the Telestial Kingdom:
to end up in Mormon Hell, a.k.a. “Outer Darkness”, is pretty hard, but we want to help our fellow man end up in a better kingdom of glory. that’s why we do all that missionary work.
Close. I’m saying everyone living has already earned a ticket to heaven. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t different stops along the way. I sincerely doubt too many people will ever have a perfect knowledge while living, so it’s really not an issue. just saying, I went to church for 4 years and will never go back doesn’t trigger it. Saying God doesn’t exist doesn’t trigger it, unless you clearly know, from personal experience, that he does exist.
They go door to door to spread a message. Overselling it as they do.
They feel conversion guaranties you a higher afterlife because it allows you to progress in your knowledge. To grow.
No caffeine? I never heard caffeine was forbidden in any way.
No alcohol, it ruins too many families for them to accept it.
No tobacco, it ruins lives too.
Really? It’s a standard item on any list of Mormon mockery, and even though it’s apparently wrong, the ban is “only” on tea and coffee, it’s been “misunderstood” by a lot of fairly high church officials:
Sorry about the misunderstanding about caffeine. Is it only coffee and tea that’s not allowed?
Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful responses, HD and Morgenstern. It still doesn’t answer the fundamental question, though, that if the shooter gets all those kids into the Celestial Heaven, first class, if you will, then he’s doing them a favor. They may be able to stay there, or they may slip down to one of the other forms of heaven if they live past 8. What’s the downside from their perspective? Another 70 or 80 years with a risk of eternity in the cheap seats or a guaranteed eternity in first class right now? Seventy years is nothing, literally, compared to eternity, and even the slightest risk of falling to a lower level of heaven is a giant risk for them.
ETA: Just saw naita’s post. What she said about caffeine.
And, further good news! You’re not done with the missionaries when you pass away. Yes, they (dead spirits) will visit with your spirit and you’ll be so dead and bored you’ll talk to them. You get another chance to accept the gospel!
I’m not Mormon, but this is why I don’t spend any time worrying about atheists’ souls, especially those who are good people. If God is real, they’ll see on judgment day and they won’t deny it, and will go to heaven. If he’s not real, what good would worrying do anyway?
