[QUOTE=vivalostwages]
I think it might have been Terry Pratchett (though I am not sure) who commented that we ought to kill the missionaries, then, because when they go and preach to these hut-dwellers, they put them at risk of being sent to Hell for rejecting the testimony.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, it was Pratchett.
Hey, why do the hut dwellers get an easier deal than the rest of us?!?
[QUOTE=vivalostwages]
I’d heard long ago that such folks go to Heaven automatically.
[/QUOTE]
Since this is GD how about a cite?
How does this reconcile with Rom 5:17?
[QUOTE=LilShieste]
What about a person who is born in a hut in the forest, unaware of the existence of the rest of society; what if they are never taught about God and Jesus? Why punish them for something they had no control over?
LilShieste
[/QUOTE]
Oh, they go straight to Hell. There’s a special chamber there where the flames are 999,999 Kelvin instead of the Metatronically-mandated 1,000,000, and the worms eating your flesh apologize every time they get down to bone and your skin starts regenerating.
[QUOTE=LilShieste]
What about a person who is born in a hut in the forest, unaware of the existence of the rest of society; what if they are never taught about God and Jesus? Why punish them for something they had no control over?
[/QUOTE]
One way that people look at it is that Christ is the Logos, or the Mind, in tune with the highest level of understanding that can be comprehended within our context as material beings. That would make him the gateway to the creator which is beyond created existance. This personification of logos explains what he says not so much in the literal interpretation of Christ as a man, but as Christ having the authority to speak as the Logos. From this context, simply because someone is not introduced to Christ personally, it doesn’t mean they cannot access the Logos.
On the other hand in Revelation it talks of the day of Judgment when everyone who ever lived would be judged and raised from the dead into Eternal life.
I think that it’s not so much that heathens are punished for not having had the gospel preached to them, but that they are missing out on a higher level of knowledge. It’s more like not being rewarded than it is like being punished.
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Since this is GD how about a cite?
How does this reconcile with Rom 5:17?
[/QUOTE]
That’s easy, Paul wasn’t Jesus, he was a pompous and arrogant douchebag who had some good ideas but generally took it much farther than he had any right to. ;p
If you’re the kind that believe in Jesus as an avatar of a sort then the gospels are the only things that matter, the rest is just commentary.
[QUOTE=mswas]
That’s easy, Paul wasn’t Jesus, he was a pompous and arrogant douchebag who had some good ideas but generally took it much farther than he had any right to. ;p
If you’re the kind that believe in Jesus as an avatar of a sort then the gospels are the only things that matter, the rest is just commentary.
[/QUOTE]
Sooooo…no cite then?
[QUOTE=mswas]
On the other hand in Revelation it talks of the day of Judgment when everyone who ever lived would be judged and raised from the dead into Eternal life.
[/QUOTE]
or be thrown into the lake of sulfur and fire, where the smoke of their torment goes up (on the short end) for ages of ages or (at the long end) for ever and ever, which is the second death.
Leaving that part out risks:
[QUOTE=Rev 22:19]
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[/QUOTE]
I know you like to ignore/disregard parts of the Word, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
or be thrown into the lake of sulfur and fire, where the smoke of their torment goes up (on the short end) for ages of ages or (at the long end) for ever and ever, which is the second death.
[/quote]
Does it specifically say second death? I always looked at the eternal damnation as still being eternal life.
However, in fairness to Mad John, I don’t throw out parts of that prophecy, I toss it all out. I don’t know why that lunatic’s ravings ever became canonical.
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Sooooo…no cite then?
[/QUOTE]
What cite is required? I don’t think there is anywhere in the bible that cites that Paul was pompous and Jesus was the good stuff. I was just making a wisecrack about Paul.
[QUOTE=mswas]
However, in fairness to Mad John, I don’t throw out parts of that prophecy, I toss it all out. I don’t know why that lunatic’s ravings ever became canonical.
[/QUOTE]
So for you, christianity is kind of a make it up as you go along thing?
[QUOTE=askeptic]
So for you, christianity is kind of a make it up as you go along thing?
[/QUOTE]
Why should mswas be any different from the rest of Christianity? You all pick and choose what you want to follow out of the Bible.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Why should mswas be any different from the rest of Christianity? You all pick and choose what you want to follow out of the Bible.
[/QUOTE]
Surely you are not mistaking me for a christian, are you? This thread is about whether according to christian doctrine, belief in god is required for salvation. Many people keep wandering in to offer their warm and fuzzy personal beliefs.
[QUOTE=begbert2]
Heh, it might be amusing to note that in Mormonism, many believe that that the highest kingdom (which is analogous to other kindom’s heavens) will be located on, and entirely encompass, the planet earth. (The planet’ll be refurbished first.) If that’s correct, not only would it not be full, but everyone there is likely going to be able to have their own backyards.
[/QUOTE]
There is a lot in Mormonism which is (or seems) quite contradictory. With the huge push that Mormonism has for salvation for the dead, and the doctrine that all souls will have the opportunity to get into the Celestial Kingdom (the highest) then it would seem that there would need to be more room. Also, with the number of dogs and other animal which are restored, then it’s got to be a busy place.
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Surely you are not mistaking me for a christian, are you? This thread is about whether according to christian doctrine, belief in god is required for salvation. Many people keep wandering in to offer their warm and fuzzy personal beliefs.
[/QUOTE]
There is no common “Christian Doctrine” when it comes to salvation. If you are looking for a definitive answer instead of a bunch of opinions, you are not going to get it. Even if one’s religious beliefs come solely from the Bible, one can usually find justification for any belief if you look hard enough, and people tend to follow what they already want and believe when it comes to that book. You are going to get warm and fuzzy beliefs. You are going to get fire and brimstone beliefs. You are going to get combinations of the two. What you are not going to get is “The Answer”.
I remember hearing the same thing as vivalostwages, but I’ve never been directed to any reference in the Bible about this.
[QUOTE=Polycarp]
One receives this grace individually by trusting Him, i.e., by putting one’s faith in Him. One is then, it would appear from Jesus’s teaching as presented in the Gospels and James’s expansion on Paul’s doctrine, expected to show that one has in fact decided to trust God and follow Him by a life characterized by the love of God and one’s fellow man, humility, the following of the Golden Rule, generosity, compassion, forgiveness, etc.
[/quote]
As usual, Polycarp, your post was very interesting and thought provoking. I’m curious how this plays into the scenario in which someone hasn’t been exposed at all to Christian teachings. As Contrapuntal mentioned, a belief in God would be required in order to put one’s faith in Him.
I appreciate everyone’s input to this thread so far. I realize that there is going to be speculation, and some of it may go against what is in the Scripture… but I guess that’s why this is in GD. 
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Hey, for all we know it might already be full, right?
[/QUOTE]
Courtesy of Family Guy:
Peter: Wait, before you go - what’s heaven like?
Peter’s dead relative: It’s alright… there’s a shortage of chairs.
Peter: Oh…
Peter’s dead relative: Yeah.
[QUOTE=vivalostwages]
I think it might have been Terry Pratchett (though I am not sure) who commented that we ought to kill the missionaries, then, because when they go and preach to these hut-dwellers, they put them at risk of being sent to Hell for rejecting the testimony. If they had been left to their own devices, they would not have run this risk at all.
[/quote]
Touché, Mr. Pratchett.
LilShieste
Past thread on the subject:
My understanding of the Biblical teaching~
Entrusting oneself to Yahweh/Jesus. which works itself out in kindness & fairness to others, is essential for a happy eternal existence (aka Eternal Life).
Those who are trusting Y/J & caring for others in this life have a head-start on that Eternal Life.
Those who live & die w/o any real opportunity to trust Y/J & care for others will get that opportunity in some form of Afterlife.
People who mix it up- are kind to others but don’t believe in or even hate Y/J will be fairly rewarded & punished as will those who profess trust in Y/J but are uncaring or mean to others. The course they embark on in this life could well influence their ultimate destinies, so decisions made in this life are important. However, Y/J’s kindness & fairness may allow for changes to be made. You just never know.
Everyone will get some happy & unhappy surprises.
Ultimately, everyone will be embraced in the Eternal Kindness & Fairness of Yahweh/Jesus- hopefully to their eternal delight, but some perhaps to their ultimate horror. The latter, if there are any, may be mercifully allowed to fade out of existence.
Jesus used the term “Gehenna Fire” and John the Revelator “the Lake of Divine Sulfer & Fire” to denote the Judging Presence of Yahweh, with Isaiah 30 as their precedent.
This Fiery Justice of God can be punitive, destructive & redemptive. No Scripture demands that it be eternally gratuitous torture.
[QUOTE=mswas]
No, belief in Jesus is the only path to salvation. That’s even more specific than belief in God. God in a sense IS salvation, the Father that Christ brings one to.
[/QUOTE]
Even more specifically, that Christ died for our sins.
[QUOTE=Renee]
Past thread on the subject:
[/QUOTE]
You might want to check your link; that one comes back to the beginning of this thread.