Do you agree with the notion of separation described by ITR champion? Hell’s fire aside, I’d think being eternally separated from a loved one who happened to be Christian would be rather torturous even if you weren’t being flayed alive by demons or whatever.
Even such a mild punishment, considered in terms of eternity, seems difficult to square with the notion of a loving God.
Here’s what I feel.
You, me and everybody you’ve ever met on this planet is morally superior to any god like Yahweh, any savior like Jesus.
If killers, murderers even embezzlers can get a pass to paradise for all eternity and a (hopefully) nice person like me who is kind to others gets a free pass to eternal damnation for not believing a contradictory story with outlandish requirements and holes you can drive a truck through is fair??
My “crime” in not believing this crap for a FINITE period of time means I deserve an INFINITE amount of punishment?? If it were true, I guess I could ask Achan on how he felt it was just for his entire family to be stoned to death and then burned because he pillaged a few things. (Joshua 7 2:26) Or anybody from Jericho, the Ammonites, the Armonites…
The idea that suffering is redemptive comes into play there, I think. Not just suffering for a righteous cause - ie: suffering with grace - but that suffering is itself a righteous cause.
It helps people overrule their own pain and the pain they cause others and say, “I am doing God’s work.” In reality, of course, they are bringing misery into the world, perhaps without even the possibility of grace.
Remember, kiddos, the original sin was knowing right from wrong. It was using your bean. It was failing to obey.
It ain’t necessarily so
It ain’t necessarily so
De things dat yo’ liable to read in de Bible
It ain’t necessarily so
Who am I? Who are you? Who are we that we should question God? Man’s mind is not capable of understanding the vastness and complexities of God.
Don’t believe. That is your prerogative. But don’t question my belief, which I don’t have to justify to you.
Heil!
You did not provide your own thoughts here, but rather a group of texts that you’ve cut and pasted.
In any event, they do "not* indicate that the bible says that evildoers are going to a fiery sentient hell.
Long story short- the “Fire” of Gehenna/the Lake of Fire is the Presence of God/Jesus (Isaiah 30:33, Revelation 14:10. John 3:19-21). Everyone goes into the Presence- those in harmony with God & Jesus, who are (or who will be) trusting Christ as Savior & Lord, will delight in the Presence while those despise the Presence rage & cower before Them for the ages of ages (which may be a finite time or infinite) for as long as they despise the Presence. Eventually, God in His mercy may allow their own hatred to burn themselves up. I totally believe that many who leave this life as non-Christians for whatever reason will love & embrace Christ on the other side (Afterlife or Resurrection). I also totally believe that it is a dire risk to constantly respond to Christ’s invitation with a defiant refusal as one never knows when God will decide to respect that & abandon one to oneself.
I can and will question your belief. You don’t have the right to force other people to take your beliefs seriously. And yes, if you don’t want to be laughed at, you need to justify your beliefs.
Yes they do. How else would you read Jude 1:7?
And what’s this “sentinent hell”? Are you moving the flaming goal posts?
Possibly an appeal to Annihilationism? A minority of theists believe that there simply is no afterlife of any kind (no paradise, purgatory, torment, etc.) for non-believers. This view is (reasonably, in my opinion) considered more consistent with the notion of a merciful God than the fiery torment preachers like to threaten.
“Sentient Hell” though would seem to refer to a Hell that is in itself conscious and aware; like in Tanya Huff’s Keeper books or some of the Lower Planes in Dungeons and Dragons. A cool idea, but probably not what raindog meant.
Tell me where you’d like to start. Is Jude 1:7 where you’d like to start?
So I don’t waste my time—or yours----is that something you know about or your Google-Fu?
So you know, I’m not moving any goal posts. I added “sentient” to make clear that those who talk of a burning hell are talking about a place where suffering people are conscious and alive in some form. Isn’t that what you’re talking about?
I’d like to start with reason, but we are talking about religion so that is pretty much out. You made the claim that the Bible does not say there is a fiery hell. I Googled a dozen or so instances where it does. So I guess the ball is in your court to explain that the Bible does not mean what it says (unless it agrees with you, in which case it is infallible).
I appreciate your honesty, but I must say that Google is not your friend. Understanding context, and the historicity of the texts are simply not going to be done by Googling “burning hell.” With all due respect, you don’t seem to have any non-Googled command of the subject. Is that correct?
For reference, here is the NIV text for Jude 1:7
“In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.”
With that in mind, what is the appropriate context for “the punishment of eternal fire” such that it cannot be reasonably construed as a Biblical allusion to the notion of some sort of Hell where people are eternally punished via fire?
Sure they do. Ever been around a Baptist or Fundie?
I did not hear Jesus say that, as he lived on earth almost two thousand years before I was born. Rather I read a text which records his words. (I have already given the name of the text and the exact location of the quote.) This is the way that I garner all my knowledge about what any ancient historical figure said and it’s the only way that anyone today knows what any ancient person said, so the answer should have been obvious.
At this late date, after so many Biblical debates on this forum and so many others, I can only laugh out loud at anyone who says, “My position is right-it says so right here in the Bible!” and thinks that she/he has actually done anything more than reaffirm their own previously held beliefs through selective editing and interpretation.
Edited to add: “Seek and ye shall find” are the truest words I can find in the Bible…because if you look for it hard enough, you can find anything in that book.
I actually know more about the Bible than most religious people do, but much less than biblical scholars. So if you want to get into the minutiae of the proper translation of Greek and Aramaic then I will not be your match. But the OP is talking about what Christians believe, and most Christians are not concerned about whether Hades is equivalent to the popular perception of hell any more than they are as to whether Mary was really a virgin or just a young, unmarried woman. The translations of the Bible used by the vast majority of Christians contain references to Hell and eternal punishment.
It really is tiresome to see religious apologists use scholarship to bolster their particular beliefs and ignore those parts of the Bible that are not consistent with them.
If you want to get serious about Bible translations then we know that the Bible is a collection of writings by different people at different times that contains a number of internal contradictions and historical errors that rehashes earlier legends from a variety of cultures.
As I see it, God created man and woman in great variety. No two people are alike. No two people will have the same experience with faith and feeling the spirit of God. No one person of any faith is in a position to judge the faith and relationship to God of others.
He also seems to be big on free will. You make your choices and live with the consequences. God would not ask you to choose your faith blindly. If you have not the knowleged (faith) then you cannot be penalized for your lack of faith. Only those who have faith, and then deny it are in for a hard time.
Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. This tells me that it is by** works** that God will recognize your heart. Those who think that they can hurt others, confess, accept Christ, then go and do it all over again are in for a BIG surprise.
Hamlet says to Horatio,“There are greater things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy”. I figure God is smart enough to know a good person when he see one. He doesn’t need me second guessing him.
I saw this bumper sticker and it seems to express your feelings. “I don’t have a problem with God, its his fan club I can’t stand”. Is your problem with God? Or is it with the ones who seem to think they have the right act like a deusch because they read a book?