Christians, how do you justify that God is not a total prick?

[Der_Trihs]

@surrounded_by_literalists

Is your problem with God? Or is it with the ones who seem to think they have the right act like a deusch because they read a book?

Both, in my case. The main difference is that believers actually exist.

[surrounded_by_literalists]

Many years ago, on an episode of, " Miami Vice", (I know, I know) Crockett and Tubbs are chasing a drug dealer who is using Voodoo to control those who deal with him. Late at night, after returning to the station house, C and T are discussing voodoo and its hold over people. The custodian, an elderly Hatian man, is sweeping up the empty offices and listening quietly. Crockett turns to the man and asks him, “What do you think? Do you believe in all of this stuff”? The old man leans on his broom, thinks for a moment, then says, “You don’t have to believe in the ocean, but if you walk into it, you will get your feet wet”.

Miami Vice…who would have guessed

Is it really so bad that people believe as long as they allow you the right to do the same? I can’t figure out the reason for cooking and eating liver, but as long as you don’t make me do it, big deal.

[FriarTed]

@surrounded_by_literalists

Or is it with the ones who seem to think they have the right act like a deusch because they read a book?

Sorry, I gotta do it…

Do you mean they act German or like vaginal cleansers or like German vaginal cleansers?

OK, going now!

[Der_Trihs]

@surrounded_by_literalists

Is it really so bad that people believe as long as they allow you the right to do the same?

They don’t do that. They never have and I seriously doubt they ever will, so long as religion survives. The believers are always, constantly, relentlessly trying to push their dogma on others and write them into the law. And they endanger others by following their delusional beliefs. Religion is not a matter of “live and let live”. The believers simply won’t let it be.

[fumster]

@surrounded_by_literalists

Many years ago, on an episode of, " Miami Vice", (I know, I know) Crockett and Tubbs are chasing a drug dealer who is using Voodoo to control those who deal with him. Late at night, after returning to the station house, C and T are discussing voodoo and its hold over people. The custodian, an elderly Hatian man, is sweeping up the empty offices and listening quietly. Crockett turns to the man and asks him, “What do you think? Do you believe in all of this stuff”? The old man leans on his broom, thinks for a moment, then says, “You don’t have to believe in the ocean, but if you walk into it, you will get your feet wet”.

That’s pretty much what I believe. You don’t have to believe in Smurfs to get your feet wet and bluish when you step on one.

[Der_Trihs]

Thing is, you never do step on any actual Smurfs, never find voodoo that works, never find any actual miracles of any religion. It’s an argument for religion being true that assumes its own conclusion.

[fumster]

I think we have lost the thread here. The question was not about if you believe, or why you believe, it’s whether or not the guy you believe in is a prick.

Going by “his own words” he seems to be a petty, vindictive control freak who created lots of ways to make peoples’ lives miserable and continues to allow them to happen.

[surrounded_by_literalists]

@Der_Trihs

They don’t do that. They never have and I seriously doubt they ever will, so long as religion survives. The believers are always, constantly, relentlessly trying to push their dogma on others and write them into the law. And they endanger others by following their delusional beliefs. Religion is not a matter of “live and let live”. The believers simply won’t let it be.

Sadly, I can’t deny that one. In my experience, whenever I have come across a total prick, its usually a person and not God. However, I do have a few choice words for him about my wretched hair, the existence of mosquitos, and the freakishly complicated neurological system. :smack:

[monavis]

@ITR_champion

Here is what Jesus actually said:
So, four things to note. First, the sheperd in the parable does not turn any sheep into a goat or vice versa, nor has the ability to do so. The sheperd only looks at each animal and determines whether it is a sheep or a goat. So the parable does not imply that Jesus will choose who is going to go into each group, but only that he will label members of each group correctly.

Second, the criteria which distinguishes the two groups is not having faith in Jesus Christ, but rather providing for the specific physical and other needs of those who were needy.

Third, members of both groups (or presumably some of the members of both groups) will be surprised by the fact that they ended up in that group.

Fourth, the nature of the punishment is not told. We are only told that it is eternal, so in other words God has provided separate places where those who choose to spend eternity with God will be able to do so, and those who choose to spend eternity apart from God will be able to do so.

According to the NT Jesus also said He was going to come in His father’s glory with His angels while some of them standing there would not have yet seen death…it didn’t happen; 2000+ years and people are still waiting!

[monavis]

@FriarTed

Long story short- the “Fire” of Gehenna/the Lake of Fire is the Presence of God/Jesus (Isaiah 30:33, Revelation 14:10. John 3:19-21). Everyone goes into the Presence- those in harmony with God & Jesus, who are (or who will be) trusting Christ as Savior & Lord, will delight in the Presence while those despise the Presence rage & cower before Them for the ages of ages (which may be a finite time or infinite) for as long as they despise the Presence. Eventually, God in His mercy may allow their own hatred to burn themselves up. I totally believe that many who leave this life as non-Christians for whatever reason will love & embrace Christ on the other side (Afterlife or Resurrection). I also totally believe that it is a dire risk to constantly respond to Christ’s invitation with a defiant refusal as one never knows when God will decide to respect that & abandon one to oneself.

Since this is just the words of some human claiming God said it , it is just a matter of what some other human said. There is no way to know anything any God said, or did. One takes what human he/she wishes to believe!

[monavis]

@ITR_champion

I did not hear Jesus say that, as he lived on earth almost two thousand years before I was born. Rather I read a text which records his words. (I have already given the name of the text and the exact location of the quote.) This is the way that I garner all my knowledge about what any ancient historical figure said and it’s the only way that anyone today knows what any ancient person said, so the answer should have been obvious.

In truth ,you read what some one said Jesus said:Jesus left no writings! The writings about Jesus were many years after the fact, and even some History isn’t exactly as written, a lot depends on who does the writing. Humans have the habit of glorifying what they desire,and some play down what they don’t like. The ancient texts have been translated many ways, by many writers, so they are not more accurate than if God really dictated a book to Muhammad!

[raindog]

@trabajabamos

For reference, here is the NIV text for Jude 1:7
“In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.”

With that in mind, what is the appropriate context for “the punishment of eternal fire” such that it cannot be reasonably construed as a Biblical allusion to the notion of some sort of Hell where people are eternally punished via fire?

Let’s start here: What is the fire of Sodom & Gomorrah? In other words, if the people of Sodom & Gomorrah serve as an example, what exactly happened to them?

[FriarTed]

@monavis

Since this is just the words of some human claiming God said it , it is just a matter of what some other human said. There is no way to know anything any God said, or did. One takes what human he/she wishes to believe!

OK, here’s the rule- when the question is about the Christian God or Jesus, the Bible is an authoritative source. Even if it’s all made up, it’s like if someone asks about Count Dracula, then someone else quotes the novel & you say “Oh, Bram Stoker just made that up.”

How damn hard is this for people to understand?

[raindog]

@sh1bu1

I actually know more about the Bible than most religious people do, but much less than biblical scholars. So if you want to get into the minutiae of the proper translation of Greek and Aramaic then I will not be your match. But the OP is talking about what Christians believe, and most Christians are not concerned about whether Hades is equivalent to the popular perception of hell any more than they are as to whether Mary was really a virgin or just a young, unmarried woman. The translations of the Bible used by the vast majority of Christians contain references to Hell and eternal punishment.

It really is tiresome to see religious apologists use scholarship to bolster their particular beliefs and ignore those parts of the Bible that are not consistent with them.

If you want to get serious about Bible translations then we know that the Bible is a collection of writings by different people at different times that contains a number of internal contradictions and historical errors that rehashes earlier legends from a variety of cultures.

Than you should join the MB, because it is chock-full of people who claim to know the bible. Most, it would seem, have read it cover to cover. Even more impressive some have read it cover to cover multiple times, including cover to cover in different languages and multiple translations.

The very best part is that they only have to claim they’ve read it. When pressed, it’s just fine to say you read it college 10 years ago as part of some super duper class you were taking and can’t be expected to remember every-single-verse. (which appears to mean I can’t be expected to remember any-single-verse)

So let me correct you. The OP said, “…But seriously, let’s just say for the moment that the Christian bible IS true…” and I corrected him that the bible does not indicate a burning hell. If you wish to amend that to say essentially “This is what some Christians believe…” (or even most Christians) than I’m good.

But the bible does not indicate a burning hell and Google will not be a surrogate for a command of the subject.

[FriarTed]

@raindog

But the bible does not indicate a burning hell and Google will not be a surrogate for a command of the subject.

I get your point but yeah, the Bible indicates a burning hell, but not necessarily one of eternal torment. Sheol/Hades & Gehenna both have Bible passages with fiery terminology. And alas, most English translations seem to indicate eternal suffering. It’s just that in the Hebrew & the Greek, “eternal” isn’t necessarily the meaning of the originals.

But yeah, on the Net, everyone is a Bible scholar, can benchpress at least one ton, and has maximum endowment & stamina.

[raindog]

@FriarTed

I get your point but yeah, the Bible indicates a burning hell, but not necessarily one of eternal torment. Sheol/Hades & Gehenna both have Bible passages with fiery terminology. And alas, most English translations seem to indicate eternal suffering. It’s just that in the Hebrew & the Greek, “eternal” isn’t necessarily the meaning of the originals.

But yeah, on the Net, everyone is a Bible scholar, can benchpress at least one ton, and has maximum endowment & stamina.

Hello FriarTed

Some time go (in a thread long long ago…;)) I posted a very long post on the different ways some English translations rendered Sheol/ Hades & Gehenna. As you know they appear hundreds of times, including examples where Job prays to enter “hell” or the fact that Jesus was (for a time) in “hell.”

So it is clear that English translations have rendered the exact same word in different ways to support a literal burning hell. Even then, any translation can serve as a means of showing that there is no burning hell.

Sure, there is much metaphor and symbolism in the bible. Theres no denying that. But the same people who see a burning hell understand [correctly] that Lazuras was not literally not on Abraham’s bosom, or that a single drop of water would provide any relief to someone burning alive. IOW, they can often clearly see metaphor. But…like the false Trinity Doctrine the belief precedes the text. They’ve been told there’s a burning hell and so any reference to such symbolism confirms what they already know.

Each and every reference-----like Jude 1:7--------can be correctly understood by examining the author, the thrust of his comments, the history and the overall context.

Or you can simply Google “burning hell.” :dubious:

[kanicbird]

@Shakes

But seriously, let’s just say for the moment that the Christian bible IS true. How do you get over the fact that God will make [anybody burn in hell for enterinty who doesn’t belive in him or accept Jesus as their saviour? Even if said people have been good people their whole lives?

Isn’t that a total prick move?

Am I outdated? Do people still subscribe to the eternal damnation thing?

Because eternal damnation is not true. God created every being, and His plan is perfect and He desires all to be saved, and all is ultimately His children. If even one is lost, then God’s family would be in eternal pain of loss, which can not happen. When the devil created this alternate path which we call reincarnation, a cycle of continuous death, God gave the devil a child into this cycle and into this world, this child is Jesus. Through the pain that Jesus suffered He made it possible for everyone to experience Love and thus seek Love and come home. Some may say that they don’t know Jesus but have experienced Love, but that is impossible because that Love is Jesus and is just another name for Him.

Jesus raised people from the dead (Hell/Sheol), as did people from the OT and NT, and Jesus gave us the power to raise people from the dead. Hell is not a barrier, but a refinement.

Also believing and being baptized is stated as a condition of being saved, but both does not guarantee that a person will not spend some time in hell before being saved, Jesus is the most notable example of this.

[Cumberdale]

@kanicbird

Because eternal damnation is not true. God created every being, and His plan is perfect and He desires all to be saved, and all is ultimately His children. If even one is lost, then God’s family would be in eternal pain of loss, which can not happen. When the devil created this alternate path which we call reincarnation, a cycle of continuous death, God gave the devil a child into this cycle and into this world, this child is Jesus. Through the pain that Jesus suffered He made it possible for everyone to experience Love and thus seek Love and come home. Some may say that they don’t know Jesus but have experienced Love, but that is impossible because that Love is Jesus and is just another name for Him.

All except Pharaoh:

Then the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt and he pursued after the Israelites, although the Israelites were going out boldly. Exodus 14

[fumster]

@kanicbird

Because eternal damnation is not true. God created every being, and His plan is perfect and He desires all to be saved, and all is ultimately His children. If even one is lost, then God’s family would be in eternal pain of loss, which can not happen. When the devil created this alternate path which we call reincarnation, a cycle of continuous death, God gave the devil a child into this cycle and into this world, this child is Jesus. Through the pain that Jesus suffered He made it possible for everyone to experience Love and thus seek Love and come home. Some may say that they don’t know Jesus but have experienced Love, but that is impossible because that Love is Jesus and is just another name for Him.

Jesus raised people from the dead (Hell/Sheol), as did people from the OT and NT, and Jesus gave us the power to raise people from the dead. Hell is not a barrier, but a refinement.

Also believing and being baptized is stated as a condition of being saved, but both does not guarantee that a person will not spend some time in hell before being saved, Jesus is the most notable example of this.

But God set forth the conditions that require us to be saved and to spend time in hell. To cause a child to be born in sin because of what his ancestors did 6,000 years ago is prickish.

It’s like saying I’m a good guy if at some point I stop punching you in the nose and hand you a bandaid.

[trabajabamos]

@raindog

Let’s start here: What is the fire of Sodom & Gomorrah? In other words, if the people of Sodom & Gomorrah serve as an example, what exactly happened to them?

Well, Genesis 19:24-25 says:
“(24) Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. (25) Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.”

Based on that alone, I’d answer your first question by saying that the fire was a literal fire that God himself used to smite the cities, effectively killing everyone and everything in the area. Naturally, one might assume that this particular fire eventually burned out and that, therefore, the “eternal fire” referenced in Jude is referring to something more… eternal.

Also, while I enjoy the whole Socratic method as much as anyone, this might go faster if you just directly answer my earlier question:

@trabajabamos

…what is the appropriate context for “the punishment of eternal fire” such that it cannot be reasonably construed as a Biblical allusion to the notion of some sort of Hell where people are eternally punished via fire?