Christians is it wrong to own two coats? How about luxuries? And so on...

[lekatt]

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
lekatt, Jesus did establish a church you are picking and choosing scriptures and taking things badly out of context. You see church as a physical structure filled of man made rules, and in that sense you are correct - this is not what Jesus established, but you leave out Jesus (as you so often do), He established His church which is a spiritual family with Him, and is part of Him. When 2 or more believers are gathered in His name He is there with us.
You haven’t proved that to any extent, you have IMHO no idea of what it says, you mentioned concepts that is more at home in the occult then the Word of God, remember Satan used the Word of God for his own purpose and masquerades as an angel of light (1 Cor 11:14). Which pretty much describes your NDE encounter. You deny hell, Satan and demons, yet say that Jesus meant what He said, and he spoke of all 3 often, much more often then Paul ever did.
Jesus’ words came straight from the Father via the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that lives inside the Believers. Thinking God can’t get His word to us exactly how He wants means you have very little regard for God’s power.
Again you show the deception you are under, Peter is exactly the person that God would use. Look at Moses, some who stuttered is goign to lead God’s people out of Egypt? Isreal was the ‘least among nations’, David slew Goliath and became King - the last born son in the family a shepherd, Odisimus <sp>, a run away slave returned to be a important figure in the church, perhaps establishing one for Christ.

Again distortion of the enemy comes through you. Yes Jesus didn’t like the established temple, that is why He gave his body for us and tore the temple curtain. The church is no longer a structure that God’s Name will be in, but God is now in us, we are His church.

You left out cast out demons - which is more of a teaching of His then don’t judge others, He actually instructed people to go out and cast out demons.
Again you have no idea what the church really is, it is spiritual.

No is it the acceptance of Jesus as Lord that changes lives, at which time you are born into His church. The teachings at first let you get to know Jesus, but the turning point is accepting Jesus into your heart. After which the teachings are used to test the spirits.

Jesus didn’t give any of these people a pass, He payed the price for them in full.

For those who believe, who put Jesus in the proper place in their hearts, Lord over their life. We have to decide that we don’t want to run our own life and want to have a God over us.
[/QUOTE]

Christian churches are not equal, some teach fear, while others teach love. You can find evidence of both teachings in the Bible. God gave us free will to choose our own path through the world. I chose the path of love, or I should say it chose me. Now, I know God loves me and you also. That He will not harm either of us. We have nothing to fear, we can be friends in His love. I believe Jesus’ teachings were of love one another, and He did love all people. Love is so much more peaceful, and joyful. God will not harm you.

[cosmosdan]

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
lekatt, Jesus did establish a church you are picking and choosing scriptures and taking things badly out of context. You see church as a physical structure filled of man made rules, and in that sense you are correct - this is not what Jesus established, but you leave out Jesus (as you so often do), He established His church which is a spiritual family with Him, and is part of Him. When 2 or more believers are gathered in His name He is there with us.
[/QUOTE]

Even when the believers are discussing how wrong and damed the other believers are?

Jesus’ words came straight from the Father via the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that lives inside the Believers. Thinking God can’t get His word to us exactly how He wants means you have very little regard for God’s power.

It zero to do with God’s power. It’s a question of how God gets his word to us, what is God’s word and what isn’t, and, how free will plays into the delivery and passing on of that word. The evidence shows that the the New Testament , as we have it, has been altered as it passed from person to person translator to translator. To deny the plain evidence is to deny the truth we were asked to seek .

For those who believe, who put Jesus in the proper place in their hearts, Lord over their life. We have to decide that we don’t want to run our own life and want to have a God over us.

My guess is that you believe we should place God above the traditions of men. IMO that’s one of the biggest challenges for established religions. They claim they know the truth that God wants everyone else to follow and obey and yet they can’t agree with each other. They embrace long held traditions over a personal seeking for the truth and present those traditional beliefs as if they were speaking for God.

[cosmosdan]

[QUOTE=Genghis Bob]
Yep, that whole “judge not” thing seems not so much in vogue with a big branch of the Christian family these days . . . which is one reason why I avoid the reunions.
[/QUOTE]

Well I was kidding around more than I was serious. I think judge not is an oversimplification of the actual teaching. “Judge not” seems to mean don’t judge harshly or to quickly. Obviously we have to make judgments to live. But we should pay attention to what judgment we use concerning others because
Mat 7:

2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

[Revenant_Threshold]

My own view on the whole “judge not” thing is that it’s really not saying not to judge people. It’s saying that you should feel free to judge other people; but beware that you will be judged by those exact standards yourself. In other words, don’t be a hypocrite, and hold yourself to the same standards you expect of others. Harshness or quickness of judgement likewise is fine, as long as you’re willing for others to show you little mercy or rush to judge you in turn.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

[QUOTE=Biffy the Elephant Shrew]
It wasn’t Jesus who said the “two coats” thing; it was John the Baptist.

Jesus himself was confronted with a similar question to the OP in John 12 when he got a hot-oil foot massage from Mary Magdalene and Judas piped up with “Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?” to which Jesus replied “Shut up.”
[/QUOTE]

Three hundred pence?? That was a LOT of money in those days. Especially if the pence were silver, which is possible, and in which case it’s exactly ten times the price of…you know.

[wolf_in_second_hand_clothing]

It certainly seems like the passages about money and property get the most contorted explanations of why “it doesn’t really mean that”.

http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/welcome.html

[cosmosdan]

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
My own view on the whole “judge not” thing is that it’s really not saying not to judge people. It’s saying that you should feel free to judge other people; but beware that you will be judged by those exact standards yourself. In other words, don’t be a hypocrite, and hold yourself to the same standards you expect of others. Harshness or quickness of judgement likewise is fine, as long as you’re willing for others to show you little mercy or rush to judge you in turn.
[/QUOTE]

well, not according to Luke 6:

36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Judging honestly we temper our judgment with the knowledge that we don’t know the whole story usually and have not walked in the shoes of those we have to make judgments about. We forgive the foibles of others because there will be times we need to be forgiven.

OTOH Harsh judgment of others, being quick to condemn others for human weaknesses that we ourselves may possess probably means we’re not being honest with ourselves about our own issues. Without that honesty, how can we overcome them?

[kanicbird]

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Yes, they knew what they were talking about. Here is a link to religious tolerance that I think is very good.
[/QUOTE]

I admit I haven’t studied many of those other belief systems, but of the ones I know they miss out on the true total and personal love of God, and hence miss out on the great love we can have for others. Perhaps you, or someone else can say what other belief system has this degree of love between God and man:
1 - Become adopted children of God with the same status of God’s only Son
2 - Becoming full brothers of the Son of God
3 - Truly becoming one flesh with the Son of God, who is one substance with God.
4 - Jesus loved us so much that it includes and is related to the love of a husband who is willing to die for His wife, even though His wife has committed adultery, all Jesus requires is His wife (the Church) to turn back to Him.
5 - Giving us the exact same Spirit of God that is in Jesus.
6 - Will make His home with us after resurrection (I believe forever, but I’d have to look that part up)

All the above I can support in scriptures if anyone is interested.

It all defines how much that God and our Lord really does love us that Jesus is willing to give up His glory in heaven to save what the Father created just for Him.

I would WAG that no other faith has such a degree of love expressed on such a personal level. Without knowing the love of God (the most important commandment), I would contend that you can’t really know love enough to love your neighbor.

[kanicbird]

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Even when the believers are discussing how wrong and damed the other believers are?
[/QUOTE]

God is not pleased with such infighting.

It zero to do with God’s power. It’s a question of how God gets his word to us, what is God’s word and what isn’t, and, how free will plays into the delivery and passing on of that word. The evidence shows that the the New Testament , as we have it, has been altered as it passed from person to person translator to translator. To deny the plain evidence is to deny the truth we were asked to seek .

Actually it has everything to do with God’s Spirit, it is by the Spirit that we understand the scriptures, man’s efforts can’t change God, to deny that is to deny the truth.

My guess is that you believe we should place God above the traditions of men. IMO that’s one of the biggest challenges for established religions. They claim they know the truth that God wants everyone else to follow and obey and yet they can’t agree with each other. They embrace long held traditions over a personal seeking for the truth and present those traditional beliefs as if they were speaking for God.

I agree with this entire statement.

[kanicbird]

[QUOTE=Genghis Bob]
Yep, that whole “judge not” thing seems not so much in vogue with a big branch of the Christian family these days . . . which is one reason why I avoid the reunions.
[/QUOTE]

That is more for fellow believers as we are all in different stages of our faith, but we are instructed to test people who claim to know God, actual instructions are given in the scriptures on how.

[cosmosdan]

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I would WAG that no other faith has such a degree of love expressed on such a personal level. Without knowing the love of God (the most important commandment), I would contend that you can’t really know love enough to love your neighbor.
[/QUOTE]

Then you should check out The Bahai and
A Course in Miracles

to name two more recent religions.

I’d suggest that other religions stress love as well when they suggest our actions in the world reflect our spiritual condition.

[Mister_Rik]

[QUOTE=Slypork]
What I said before, Matthew 22:39 . Love thy neighbor. Pretty straightforward. Anyone who claims to be a Christian but doesn’t follow that rule is not doing what Christ asks. Actually, anyone, no matter whether they believe in God or not, who doesn’t follow that rule is pretty much an asshole.
[/QUOTE]

“The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people.” – Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Yes, Peter denied knowing Jesus (he had even been told he would do it. Spooky!) but Jesus understood that if Peter acknowledged knowing Jesus that he would have been captured and possibly killed, thus not being able to spread the word. So Jesus gave him a pass on the denying bit. That’s just the kind of guy he was.

True. After the crucifixion, Peter had been beating himself up over his denial. The “Peter, do you love me?” scene in John 21:15-17 was Jesus sort of telling Peter, “Do you love me? You do? Then get over yourself, and get busy doing what I told you to do (feed my sheep)”.

@Revenant Threshold

My own view on the whole “judge not” thing is that it’s really not saying not to judge people. It’s saying that you should feel free to judge other people; but beware that you will be judged by those exact standards yourself.

Another view is that this commandment is telling us that it’s not our place to determine who is or is not “saved”. That’s God’s job.

[Genghis_Bob]

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
That is more for fellow believers as we are all in different stages of our faith, but we are instructed to test people who claim to know God, actual instructions are given in the scriptures on how.
[/QUOTE]

I can’t help thinking God would be much more pleased with us if we spent less time testing other people, and more time examining ourselves.

[cosmosdan]

[QUOTE=kanicbird]

Actually it has everything to do with God’s Spirit, it is by the Spirit that we understand the scriptures, man’s efforts can’t change God, to deny that is to deny the truth.

[/QUOTE]
Now you’re changing or avoiding the original issue. **lekatt **correctly pointed out that the New Testament words of Christ were written by men and we can’t be sure how accurately they are recorded.

You defended the* written word *specifically by claiming

Jesus’ words came straight from the Father via the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that lives inside the Believers. Thinking God can’t get His word to us exactly how He wants means you have very little regard for God’s power.

Implying God protected and preserved Jesus’ words for us and to question that is to have little regard for God’s power. First let’s note that your position starts by assuming that a long held Christian tradition about the nature of the Bible is fact, even when the evidence points against it.
I’d add the fact that the authors were probably not companions of Jesus, and the facts I mentioned before concerning the clear evidence of numerous alterations of the words of the NT as it passed through the hands of copyists and translators. There’s even a legitimate question about why certain books were chosen to be in the Bible and others left out. The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of the sayings of Jesus. Should we value it as highly as Mark or Luke?

So, it is correct to assert that questioning the source, accuracy, and purpose of the NT is not having little regard for God’s power or doubting it.
Further more, looking at your statement in this post.

If it is the living spirit that reveals the meaning of the scriptures and enlightens us then it doesn’t seem necessary for any writing to be held as infallible. Neither is there any reason to disregard all but a select few of the worlds spiritual writings.

[kanicbird]

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Now you’re changing or avoiding the original issue. lekatt correctly pointed out that the New Testament words of Christ were written by men and we can’t be sure how accurately they are recorded.
[/QUOTE]

No, not avoiding, God is in control of the universe, not man, do you think man can have any plan that can go against that of God? It’s not going to happen. If God wants to give us His Word, no man is going to stop Him.

First let’s note that your position starts by assuming that a long held Christian tradition about the nature of the Bible is fact, even when the evidence points against it.

God’s foolishness is greater then man’s knowledge, yes I have once thought that evidence points against it too.

I’d add the fact that the authors were probably not companions of Jesus, and the facts I mentioned before concerning the clear evidence of numerous alterations of the words of the NT as it passed through the hands of copyists and translators.

I’d say that translators are not the issue, we have the texts in the original languages, so now it falls down to copying errors, which is far more unlikely as passages are easily checked, the early church had apostles that would travel between the churches and would note such distortions.

The Book of Revelation, which was most likely penned a few hours after the revelation happened. John was instructed by Jesus to write it down in the revelation, so it perhaps it is the book that recorded the soonest after the event. This book, by a prisoner on a island with little hope of visiting the churches He mentioned has little reason to make stuff up, clearly implies that Jesus has established the church. If you don’t think that God can or does reveal stuff in spiritual revelation to people then you must also discount lekatts vision which is the basis that he discounts most of Jesus’ testimony.

If it is the living spirit that reveals the meaning of the scriptures and enlightens us then it doesn’t seem necessary for any writing to be held as infallible. Neither is there any reason to disregard all but a select few of the worlds spiritual writings.

Not that the scriptures are infallible, but the Spirit of God is infallible, which is what we believers use to understand the scriptures. Yes the Holy Spirit can use other books and works to get His message to us, and does use them, but chooses to do it through His Word as a main way to talk to us.

[QUOTE=Genghis Bob]
I can’t help thinking God would be much more pleased with us if we spent less time testing other people, and more time examining ourselves.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but we are warned about false teachers, they are out there and they lead many to destruction, there is plenty of warning given.

[kanicbird]

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Then you should check out The Bahai and
A Course in Miracles

to name two more recent religions.

I’d suggest that other religions stress love as well when they suggest our actions in the world reflect our spiritual condition.
[/QUOTE]

The Course in Miracles seems to be Plato’s World Soul again. and the Bahai faith dilutes the true love of God, which is that of a parent, brother and spouse, also the love that would elevate a slave to the status of son.

Your suggestion about our action in the world reflects our spiritual condition, which is contra to the message of Jesus, It’s your faith that saves you, not works, none of our works are good enough, we are truly children of God even with our flaws.

I’d suggest that no other religion, though they use the term love, really don’t capture it, their god does not express the love that God the Father and God the Son has literally shown us.

[lekatt]

[QUOTE=wolf in second hand clothing]
It certainly seems like the passages about money and property get the most contorted explanations of why “it doesn’t really mean that”.

http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/welcome.html
[/QUOTE]

This point has always been in contension, especially by those who have lots of money and property. I think it is a matter of focus, if you focus on gaining material wealth you won’t spend much time seeking spiritual goals.

Ghandi said to put all your prized possessions in the front of your house, out in the open, so if a thief broke in to steal he wouldn’t have to tear your house apart to find them. Material possession are necessary up to a point, but when your personal needs are met the rest should be given to those less fortunate.

[hotflungwok]

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Ghandi said to put all your prized possessions in the front of your house, out in the open, so if a thief broke in to steal he wouldn’t have to tear your house apart to find them. Material possession are necessary up to a point, but when your personal needs are met the rest should be given to those less fortunate.
[/QUOTE]

Which personal need of yours is being met by your computer?

[lekatt]

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
The Course in Miracles seems to be Plato’s World Soul again. and the Bahai faith dilutes the true love of God, which is that of a parent, brother and spouse, also the love that would elevate a slave to the status of son.

Your suggestion about our action in the world reflects our spiritual condition, which is contra to the message of Jesus, It’s your faith that saves you, not works, none of our works are good enough, we are truly children of God even with our flaws.

I’d suggest that no other religion, though they use the term love, really don’t capture it, their god does not express the love that God the Father and God the Son has literally shown us.
[/QUOTE]

I often tell people that I was raised a Baptist, but I overcame it. I believe everyone needs to take a long hard look at all the “truths” taught to them as children. There is no belief system without prejudice and puffery. But this does not mean the teachings were totally faulted. I looked to separate the truth from the misinformation, and I found a lot of good things about being Baptist.

There is only one God for all of us, this God is honored in thousands of different ways many of which are contradictions. Our job is to seek truth and wisdom in spiritual growth. The way to do that is through Love with a capital “L.” All the sacred texts in the world were written by man in his search for meaning and purpose to this life on earth. None of these texts are the absolute word of the living God. If fact, we don’t need texts to discover “the Kingdom of God” for it lies within us all. The way to contact the God within is through Love. Simple to say, but hard to do.

[Slypork]

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
The Course in Miracles seems to be Plato’s World Soul again. and the Bahai faith dilutes the true love of God, which is that of a parent, brother and spouse, also the love that would elevate a slave to the status of son.

Your suggestion about our action in the world reflects our spiritual condition, which is contra to the message of Jesus, It’s your faith that saves you, not works, none of our works are good enough, we are truly children of God even with our flaws.

I’d suggest that no other religion, though they use the term love, really don’t capture it, their god does not express the love that God the Father and God the Son has literally shown us.
[/QUOTE]
But if you have faith that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is your salvation yet you do not behave in a Christ-like manner then you have not truly taken him into your heart.

Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Bakker, Fred Phelps and many other “Christians” all claim that they have taken Christ into their hearts and their faith in him will lead them to salvation. Yet their behavior of hypocrisy, theft and/or hatred shows that they have not truly done so. A person who truly accepts Christ will act as Christ would want them to. As the OP suggested (does anyone even remember the OP?) Christ was telling his followers to put action to their words of faith. Translation: Put your money where your mouth is.

I realize that this has been a sticking point between Catholics and Protestants since the time of Luther. I am not claiming that you can buy your way into heaven as was done with indulgences. I am suggesting that the most devout man who praises Jesus in one breath and then denounces homosexuals, minorities or “different people” in the next is a hypocrite to Jesus’ message and undeserving of salvation.

And for people who do not believe in Jesus (or God for that matter), their good deeds make them more worthy of salvation than all the Bible thumping Jesus shouters in the world. An altruistic atheist who consistently goes out of his way to make the world better for others, relieves suffering and seeks to do no harm is a better person and a more generous soul than a born again Christian who preaches hatred and intolerance and tells me how they are saved and I am condemned to burn for eternity because I don’t agree with their particular view on salvation. The Dalai Lama lives a life of love, peace and acceptance without following Jesus. I’d rather have him than a million Benny Hinns or Robert Tiltons.