Christians is it wrong to own two coats? How about luxuries? And so on...

[cosmosdan]

@kanicbird

The Course in Miracles seems to be Plato’s World Soul again.

Which is very similar to certain passages in the NT.

and the Bahai faith dilutes the true love of God, which is that of a parent, brother and spouse, also the love that would elevate a slave to the status of son.

dilutes in what way specifically? Reading the belief section of the Bahai website I find it’s teaching about God, Love, personal spiritual growth, and our purpose, to be supported by passages in the NT. Too often religions speak of the same principles and the same essential beliefs but let the details of terminology separate them. It may be your opinion that Christianity expresses God’s love in a unique and better way than other religions but nothing you’ve written bears that out. My own experience shows me that love exists in the spirit of people from every religion and those with no religion. Christianity , like others, has its mix of good and bad. What seems to be apparent is that right now Christianity works best for you as an individual. I can respect that. I think the tendency in religion to infer that “what works best for us must also be the thing that works best for others” is often a problem when we can’t separate the doctrine and dogma of our preferred religion from the principles of love, compassion, justice and mercy that apply universally to humanity.

Your suggestion about our action in the world reflects our spiritual condition, which is contra to the message of Jesus,

IMO, It is absolutely in line with the message of Jesus and the NT and if you don’t know that then my suggestion is you’re missing something crucial. The sermon on the Mount contains a lot about how our actions must reflect our spiritual condition telling us in the final verse.

Mat 5:48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

indicating to me that we continue to strive to grow.

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

or these gems,

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Rev 2:23 Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Revelation 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

It’s your faith that saves you, not works, none of our works are good enough, we are truly children of God even with our flaws.

I’m familiar with the verses in Romans and elsewhere that speak of faith as the key, but you can’t discount all the verses that speak of works and still value the Bible as Holy and inspired text. The key is to find a meaning that makes this apparent contradiction true. One of the best examples I know is from Jesus. MAt 25, starting at verse 31. The parable of the sheep and the goats.

The people who acted out of love in helping others received a reward even though they weren’t aware of it. They didn’t know why they were being rewarded until it was explained to them. It seems to me that followers of Jesus would know, the point being that it’s sincere heartfelt love that reflects in our actions that counts. No lip service or professed faith or belief will serve as a substitute. It’s stressed again in

Mat 7; 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

It plainly says we our known by our deeds {fruits} and that calling Jesus Lord and even preforming miracles in his name is not enough.

Clearly the question of faith vs. works or faith with works involves a whole lot more than believing Jesus is the son of God.

I’d suggest that no other religion, though they use the term love, really don’t capture it, their god does not express the love that God the Father and God the Son has literally shown us.

and I disagree. I think anyone that reveres love and truth will also revere many of the teachings of Jesus Christ and can and do experience transcendent love. They can also reject certain aspects of Christian doctrine and dogma and Christianity as a religion.

[cosmosdan]

@kanicbird

Ok I think this is were we differ, I see it as the purest water being poured out of a impure filter. The work of God in us is the work of God, God is perfect, God is in us & God is one, so the workings of the Holy Spirit flowing through us has that same level of perfection.

Now I admit when we try to get our flesh mixed in, trying to ‘help God’ that mucks up the water.

and

Not that the scriptures are infallible, but the Spirit of God is infallible, which is what we believers use to understand the scriptures. Yes the Holy Spirit can use other books and works to get His message to us, and does use them, but chooses to do it through His Word as a main way to talk to us.

I have no problem with the perfection of the Holy Spirit. My belief is , and the evidence seems to support it, that believing the Bible is God’s chosen and preferred tool for expressing himself is a Christian tradition and assumed truth that doesn’t hold up to an honest examination.

Looking at the vast differences of opinions and actions about what is considered Christ like behavior and what isn’t , what is God’s will and what isn’t just among Christians who have accpeted Christ and called on the Holy Spirit I have a hard time understanding how you can believe the Holy Spirit working through imperfect humans has a Godly level of perfection.

Jesus told the apostles that there was more for them to learn but they weren’t ready for it. Even after the day of Pentecost when the HS descended on them they didn’t always agree with each other. They were told the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. I believe that’s true for all if us. The question is how does that spiritual journey work?

When I began to examine my own beliefs some years ago I started with a couple of foundational beliefs.

God loves all his creation equally.
and , James 1:5 If any one asks wisdom let him ask of God who gives to all men liberally.

God ,who loves us all equally and sees the true intent of our hearts, will commune with any person who sincerely invites that communion. Having free will, or at least the illusion of free will, we choose based on our true desire of the heart to surrender ourselves to that communion to whatever degree we are able. That degree, is determined at least in part by our personal experiences and the input from our culture and society. It takes effort , practice and dedication to learn how to commune with the Spirit more completely. While we are on that journey we are still influenced by our culture, and our society and our own personal preferences. Free will means the degree to which we surrender to the Holy Spirit is personal and voluntary. We are asked and urged to listen and follow, but we choose our path and reap the consequences of our choices.

So, in most world religions I think we see mans quest for truth and meaning, mixed in with cultural influences, tradition and dogma. We take the teachings an organized religion around them. Then we often make the mistake of worshiping the form of the religion rather than focusing on the teachings themselves.

Aside from that tangent, it seems obvious that cultural influences had their affect on the authors of the Bible when we see passages about women being silent in church and covering their heads. Passages conveniently ignored by most modern Christians. If the workings of God through us has some Godly level of perfection it certainly isn’t reflected in the NT.

[Fear_Itself]

@lekatt

I am aware of those who try to scare people into believing in Jesus and going to church, by using demons and devils and hell, these are not the teachings of Jesus.

So how do we interpret the following words of Jesus:

Matthew 5:22

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 7:15-19
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 18:7-9

"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 25:41-46

"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

These words of Jesus seem pretty clear to me; do you have another way to interpret them other than the threat of eternal damnation?

[lekatt]

@Fear Itself

So how do we interpret the following words of Jesus:

Matthew 5:22

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 7:15-19
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 18:7-9

"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 25:41-46

"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

These words of Jesus seem pretty clear to me; do you have another way to interpret them other than the threat of eternal damnation?

Sure, people have a choice, they can choose to be positive or they can choose to be negative. If one follows the teachings and loves one another there is no reason to consider the negative. People only consider the negative when they are trying force or scare someone else into believing as they do. This wouldn’t happen if they were following the teachings because they wouldn’t be judging others. It is very simple.

[Fear_Itself]

@lekatt

If one follows the teachings and loves one another there is no reason to consider the negative.

What are the consequences for not following the teachings of Jesus?

[lekatt]

@Fear Itself

What are the consequences for not following the teachings of Jesus?

The consequences are the same either way you choose:

“Ye shall reap whatsoever ye sow”

or

What You Do Comes Back To You.

[Fear_Itself]

@lekatt

The consequences are the same either way you choose:

“Ye shall reap whatsoever ye sow”

or

What You Do Comes Back To You.

So Jesus is threatening the wicked with eternal punishment. How is that not a fear based religion?

[lekatt]

@Fear Itself

So Jesus is threatening the wicked with eternal punishment. How is that not a fear based religion?

You didn’t get that from my post.
The Bible was written by man, we don’t really know what Jesus said, but the teachings attributed to Him do, in part, coinside with other great master teachers.

If you want to get technical, the word hell, originally described a garbage dump where trash was burned.
All we need to know is “Whatever you do to others, you do to yourself.”

There is perfect justice in this world and the spirit world. No one “gets away” with anything. Good deeds are rewarded and bad deeds are corrected in kind. Even the smallest comments are returned to the sayer.

[cosmosdan]

@Fear Itself

So Jesus is threatening the wicked with eternal punishment. How is that not a fear based religion?

Could it be a justice based religion? That’s my view of what Jesus taught, regardless of how some Christian denominations choose to teach it.

[Fear_Itself]

@lekatt

You didn’t get that from my post.

That’s what happens when you post vague, evasive answers to direct questions.

[cosmosdan]

1 Cor 3:13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

The Bible is written , copied , and translated by men and subject to interpretation. I think there’s a lot of Christians who reject the whole eternal lake of fire scenario.

[Fear_Itself]

@cosmosdan

I think there’s a lot of Christians who reject the whole eternal lake of fire scenario.

So which parts of the bible are not optional?

[kanicbird]

cosmosdan I know about all the passages of the necessity of works and works being judged, but that is a side issue. The works of the Spirit are only apparent to believers, as non-believers can’t understand the spirit, yes non-believers can see works of man, but it takes the Holy Spirit to discern the works, as “only God is good” and “God is one”:

@1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

@John 14

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.

@cosmosdan

Which is very similar to certain passages in the NT.

Yes I have stated many time that the enemy will use parts of the Word of God, leave out other parts, and/or combine it with other things to form various occult religions, there are various warnings about doing such:

@Rev 22

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

@Proverbs 30:6

6(A)Do not add to His words
Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

[cosmosdan]

@Fear Itself

So which parts of the bible are not optional?

It depends on who you ask.

Since you’re asking me I’ll give MHO.

All of it is optional since it is only a book. That being said, the truth about our world, mankind and our relationship with each other is not optional. It is unavoidable, in that choices have consequences. The words of Jesus presented in the Bible are one way of exploring that truth.

[Triskadecamus]

Or, one might decide to do good because good is better than evil.

Tris

[kanicbird]

@Triskadecamus

Or, one might decide to do good because good is better than evil.

No one is good except God alone - Mark 10:18
We need God to do good. We get that via God’s Spirit (Holy Spirit), as God is One.

@lekatt

What I am talking about here is the teachings of Jesus, He taught to love one another, to forgive, to not judge others, to go the second mile, to resist not evil and that to do these things to all people not just friends and family. His teachings if followed will enable one to live an abundant life full of joy and peace. That is the reason for His teachings. They are for those who claim to be followers of Jesus to follow. This what I am talking about. Now I am not here to compare churches or religions but to point out the real teachings of Christianity. I am aware of those who try to scare people into believing in Jesus and going to church, by using demons and devils and hell, these are not the teachings of Jesus. I hope this helps to clarify. But even if they were the teachings of Jesus I would reject them. God loves all of us equally. There are no special people. The teachings are for us to use to have a good life.

lekatt you keep mentioning preaching fear or trying to scare people, but no one has done that, at least not in this thread. As far as I can see all are attempts of 'preaching love. The question that I am putting is are you preaching the love of man, love of angels (which is higher then that of man, but includes the power of the fallen angels to deceive), or the true Love of God that comes with a personal relationship with Jesus and the power of God.

[lekatt]

@Triskadecamus

Or, one might decide to do good because good is better than evil.

Tris

Absolutely!

[Triskadecamus]

@kanicbird

No one is good except God alone - Mark 10:18
We need God to do good. We get that via God’s Spirit (Holy Spirit), as God is One.

Well, I’m gonna try, anyway.

It just seems to be the better choice.

Tris

[kanicbird]

@Triskadecamus

Well, I’m gonna try, anyway.

It just seems to be the better choice.

Tris

That is you choice, and I do hope it does lead you well. I would like leave you with a verse to consider:

@Romans 8:28

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

[lekatt]

@kanicbird

cosmosdan I know about all the passages of the necessity of works and works being judged, but that is a side issue. The works of the Spirit are only apparent to believers, as non-believers can’t understand the spirit, yes non-believers can see works of man, but it takes the Holy Spirit to discern the works, as “only God is good” and “God is one”:

Yes I have stated many time that the enemy will use parts of the Word of God, leave out other parts, and/or combine it with other things to form various occult religions, there are various warnings about doing such:

Let’s take a look at the “side” issue.

Jesus asks us to love one another and not judge others. That is asking us to do works. The idea that “belief” is somehow greater than works is nonsense, because if you truly believed in Jesus you would do what He asked of you. How would I know if someone believed in Jesus unless they actually followed Him and His teachings.

As for using parts of the word and leaving out other parts I see your quotes as “all over” the Bible in order to prove what you say. Why is that not doing what you accuse others of doing.

True Christians will be known by their works in following the teachings of Jesus, it is the only way others can know they mean what they say. A true Christian is busy doing good works not judging others.