Is it truly better? Or is it gooder? Is “more good” the same as “better”?
No, the works are of God through the believer, God does not want our own works, as they miss the mark of God. The believer is saved through faith alone, and that included surrendering their works to the works that God wants to do through them.
No God has not equiped us to do the works that would be considered good, but has a provided us a way due to His great Love to do His work through us.
This is true, Jesus didn’t speak on His own, but used the word the Father gave Him. That is what we are to do, again not our works, but God’s works through us.
You must be called by the Father, which goes hand in hand with seeking the Lord. Scripture available upon request.
Practical limitations. Would you rather have me post the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation? It is the greatest Love story that has ever been told, but a bit cumbersome to post here. The difference is I don’t ignore parts, or assume I know which parts shouldn’t be included.
Again you are ignoring the Word, that is true for believers only.
Watching out for false apostles is part of the works - the Word of the Lord:
Well, I like it more. So, for me, good is better than evil. Also, you go through friends faster with evil, so you end up better off over the long haul, friendship wise, being good. More good might not be the same as better, but then I don’t see it being worse, either.
Gooder is just competitive nice guyism. Doing good is more than just not doing evil. Mostly, you have to really pay attention to the consequences of your actions to know. Paying attention is important.
Tris
You are missing the point of Jesus’ teachings, and acting like they don’t apply to you. It is so easy to say you have faith and that you believe and therefor somehow this gives you the right to side step the teachings of Jesus and judge others. That you can do as you please and still go to “heaven.”
I think this attitude is discouraging to most people who do not believe you can bypass the teachings of Jesus just because you “believe.” There is no logical way to separate belief from deeds. If you believe in the teachings you will abide by them. As I have said there are no special chosen people, we all work under the same rules.
The teaching:
“Ye shall reap whatsoever ye sow” applies to you whether you realize it or not. Whatever you do to others you do to yourself, and that includes judging others.
Jesus said: “the greatest among you is he that serves others the most.”
It is works that show who loves Jesus and who doesn’t.
Jesus said: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” --John 14:15
Analysis of Rev 3 1-6 Jesus message to the Church in Sardis
Message to Sardis:
In Rev 3:2 Jesus says that He has not found their deeds (works) complete. It would seem at first glance that deeds (works) are required of them but in Rev 3:3 we see that Jesus is saying not to try harder (which would be a work of the flesh) but to remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. This fits faith much better then works and repenting includes turning away from one’s works as well as a sense of remorse. In Rev 3:4 Jesus says that some people have not soiled their garments, which are the people who have complete deeds/works (the opposite of those who have incomplete deeds/works and have therefore soiled their garments). Jude 1:23 shows how garments are soiled or polluted:
Garments are polluted by the flesh, which the flesh is opposite the spirit, and the 2 are against each other:
So we have incomplete works by working in the flesh, or doing deeds in our own effort.
As for those who have not soiled their garments, we can assume no such deeds of the flesh, but deeds of the spirit, as theses few people are recognized by Jesus Himself as not dead
These few people’s deeds are not dead however, so they are in the spirit as opposed to the flesh.
From Rev 3:5 Jesus is willing to confess their name before His Father, in Matt 10:32 we can see the condition Jesus imposes for this to happen, the person must confess Jesus before Men.
Such confession is a work or deed, but a work not of the flesh but of the Holy Spirit:
So the people who have not soiled their garments are the ones that are surrendered to the work of the Holy Spirit. This comes from faith:
Belief is the only requirement of receiving the Holy Spirit
lekatt no one is judging you, that would imply condemnation which is the exact opposite of what I wish for you. We are allowed to test which I have because you have had such a presents on this board, especially talking about spiritual matters. Your NDE experience described a encounter with Satan, not God, and what this ‘entity’ told you is consistent with Satan. Deception as a angel of light to lead you away from God, through distortion of God’s Word and making you believe he is God. Satan’s power over man is very impressive and can appear ‘Godlike’ but next to God’s it is nothing at all. Things that once appeared spiritually fantastic to those once deceived appear dark and small if they overcome and become children of God. Such warning are in the scriptures and clear and you are truly missing out on the greatest Love possible.
You want to know what true total Love is look into the total message and meaning of Jesus, you will find a Love that can not be described.
You have judged my experience without knowing anything about it. It’s OK, many before you have done the same. I stood in the presence of God, His love permeated every cell of my body. I saw the whole of knowledge, and witnessed His love for all of His children. I knew what it was beyond any doubt and since then have felt His love with me always.
I know it is hard to understand, almost impossible, for those who have not seen. But I am committed to helping others feel that love also, and the way to begin is to follow the teachings of Jesus. To love all others, to forgive all others, to not judge anyone, and to allow love into your life.
Thank you lekatt for stop saying I am judging you and also for stop implying I am preaching fear, for I have done neither and I think progress has been made.
Not hard to understand at all - actually very understandable to me as God has allowed it, but again your experience does not describe a encounter with God as in any scripturally encounter.
But you have judged me by saying I am not competent enough to know what my own experiences are. You are also implying you know about God, but refuse to do His bidding by not judging others and removing the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the mote from your brothers. If you loved Jesus you would keep His commandments as with not judging others. There is enough work to be done with ourselves in the area of loving others that we don’t need to judge. Jesus did not judge Peter, nor the prostiture, nor even those that murdered Him. We are to follow His example. That is the true path to the Kingdom of God.
You seem to imply here that, if an experience of the divine doesn’t have a parallel in scripture, then it’s not valid. I find it hard to believe that God’s revelation of himself to us begins and ends with scripture.
My point is, if you truly believe the Bible to be divine guidance inspired by the Holy Spirit and God’s method of choice for communicating with us it seems inconsistent to take a passage about faith saving us and give it much more weight than all the passages stressing works. Aren’t those passages equally true? If so how do they fit harmoniously with the passages about faith? What Jesus preaches in the Sermon on the mount is that a superficial obedience to the laws is not the path. Neither is lip service to God.
IMHO the passages speak of a process of growth as the Holy Spirit leads us to all truth. If we are truly transformed from within rather than superficial obedience to rules or man’s religious tradition then that transformation must be reflected in our deeds. I believe what Jesus clearly teaches is, if our actions do not reflect that sincere inner growth then we are not on the right path. If our actions do reflect a that growth then superficial labels and doctrine don’t matter. The parable of the sheep and the goats points that out.
So, non believers can’t understand the spirit or discern the works? Again, I think you’re interpreting verses through the lens of a preconceived doctrine, forcing the verses to fit the tradition.
When you say believers I assume you mean Christian believers, the followers of Christ. Does that mean that people from other religions or no religion can’t appreciate or truly grasp an act of love, forgiveness, compassion toward others? Of course they can. Isn’t it the purpose of those acts to be the beacon for others?
How can the non believers be drawn to God unless it is the spirit within them calling them to take up the journey? And who counts as believers? Is it the labels they use, which religious image they use on their quest, or is it the true intent of their heart that God sees?
Thats KJV the NIV says
What makes sense to me is that a God who loves all his creation equally and discerns the intents of our hearts will commune with any person who seeks love and truth without regard to terminology, and doctrinal details. IMO this is supported by the NT.
Thats one way of looking at it. What seems more likely to me is that sincere people seeking the truth will discover the same truths. Since we still understand in part men continue to be influenced by other factors and the superficial form and terminology will vary. We must look beyond those things to find the common belief we share.
Or that only those who accept the Christian version of Christ’s purpose have access to the Holy Spirit, so, only they are really capable of understanding.
IMO that belief isn’t really supported in the NT as a whole, or by an honest look at mankind in general. It sure is an easy and comfortable way to avoid considering alternatives though.
“I’m sure I’m right because I have the Holy Spirit, and since you don’t agree with me, you obviously don’t have it”
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here.
The debate over theft reminds me of the beloved Bishop Myriel of Digne in Les Miserables. When Jean Valjean stole his silver, the Bishop lied to the authorities about the crime and gave Valjean his treasured silver candlesticks as well. When the Bishop’s housekeeper remonstrated about the candlesticks, he replied mildly that he had grown too attached to them.
I doubt I could be so forgiving or generous, but I see it as something to aspire to. I think the greater lesson is to try to respond to acts of hate, destruction, or thoughtlessness with love and generosity.
How shall we know if we have served the Lord?
Tris
Beautifully said, and I believe each of us, as Jesus said, holds the “kingdom of God” within us, even the coldest heart can feel the tug now and then of love wanting to be released.
No I have pointed out that your experience is already explained in the Word of God. I have stated that you are being deceived that doesn’t make you incompetent, just human living in a fallen world with spiritual forces. Are you making the claim that you can’t be deceived?
Through His Spirit and Grace yes.
Are you condemning me of that, please don’t?
Are you sure you want to go here, please don’t?
lekatt I judge you not, my desire is for you to come to God, please don’t say you are accusing me of judging.
Genghis Bob you would be surprised then. But that is not what I was implying, what I am using is God’s instructions to test the spirits, which is to see if someone’s revelation agrees with the Word of God. Divine encounters are accompanied with a desire to worship, and a sense of unworthiness, sometimes this happens with holy angels as well, who quickly correct the person to worship God only. Also the instructions to ignore most of the Word of God is a strong warning, the Word is not only the only way to God (the Word became flesh), it is our only weapon against the evil one. (Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. Eph 6). THe warning is clear in Rev 22:9 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. - NIV
Of course, you are judging me. My experience has nothing to do with scriptures in the Bible. I am very sure of what I experienced because I was there, while you are judging my experience and were not there. Thousands of people have had an experience similar to mine, do you judge them are false also.
I am asking you to quit judging others, Jesus said not to judge, so why do you continue to judge me as deceived? I teach people to love one another, to not judge, to forgive others and to follow the teaching of Jesus. Why is that wrong?
Do you teach others to love and to judge not, do you believe the teachings of Jesus are for you? I am confused that you claim Christianity and ignore the teachings of Jesus, enlighten me. Where am I wrong?
As for quoting “remove the plank from thine own eye, before trying to remove the mote from thy brothers.” Yes, I did want to go there, and why not?
If you wish to bring me to God, what teachings have you to offer, what rituals or doctrine must be believed? God is with me always, He is with you also and everyone else in this world, there are no special ones.
There is no such inconsistency. Faith in Jesus as Lord will cause works by the Spirit. Those works are fruit of the Spirit and not of the person. ‘I am the vine, you are the branches’. The branches bear fruit, but it is the vine that produce them. Also we can see another example in John 21 5-11. Where the disciples went fishing on their own and caught nothing (works of man), but when they listened to Jesus (obeyed in submission to the Spirit, which was already given to them), they caught so much fish that they had a hard time hauling them in, yet the nets didn’t tear - this is the work of God, a work that they could never do on their own, only because their faith allowed them to submit to the Spirit of God.
Re: Heb 6:1, I’d agree with this.
Here I would diverge a bit. If we are truly transformed by the Spirit into the likeness of Christ then that would be reflected in bearing the fruit of the Spirit. It has nothing to do with man made rules, laws and traditions except to say that that part is over, repented of, turned away from.
I would flip this around, if we are not on the right path, our works won’t bear fruit.
Yes I know you subscribe to a form of universalism, it does take a one sided view of many scriptures. An example John 14:15:
Which can be taken:
If you love me (Jesus) then you will keep my commandments
or
Your keeping my commandments proves you love me.
I believe your faith requires only the second interpretation, which while still valid, is the weaker of the 2, this is not the only place where you would need to do that, just the one I have handy.
I can assure you that I have had very little, nor tradition while learning the Word of God. Most of what has been revealed to me has been done solely by the Holy Spirit by reading the Word without any religious organizations for perhaps 95% of it.
People who are seeking will notice the fruit of the Spirit - perhaps not knowing what it is, but noticing something, but people in the world will not.
When I say believer I mean fully surrendered ‘born again’ follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. I don’t like to use the term Christian as that gets confused with what I term secular Christianity. Non-believers can grasp a act of human love, sure, but not the Love of God. The beacon is for those who the Father is calling.
Yes the universalism, as I stated above it does require some non-standard interpretations of certain verses, and tends to dilute the Word IMO, as we have had these exchanges before It’s still something I am looking for in my readings, I am being lead away from that possibility the more I look into it, and not a place I would feel comfortable being, but am still considering it.
But they are not the same truths. One is that you have to do good works in your own effort, the other is to surrender yourself to God.
Or to put this another way, if works can save a person there would be no need for Jesus to have came/die/raise from the dead.
Unless he came not to save us but to show us what a life truly lived *In God * can be like; and if he died not as a sacrifice for sin, but as the ultimate example of not returning evil for evil; and if he came back to demonstrate that a life lived *In God * is not bound by bodily death.