[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Or to put this another way, if works can save a person there would be no need for Jesus to have came/die/raise from the dead.
[/QUOTE]
Unless, perhaps, there are no works that could have overcome original sin, but now that’s washed away we are able to save ourselves through work alone.
Depends really what your position on original sin is, really.
[QUOTE=RT]
Unless, perhaps, there are no works that could have overcome original sin, but now that’s washed away we are able to save ourselves through work alone.
Depends really what your position on original sin is, really.
[/QUOTE]
Original sin isn’t really a issue:
[QUOTE=Romans 3:23]
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[/QUOTE]
All have sinned, it seems like original sin just set up the world to make sin easier to do, unavoidably so.
[QUOTE=Romans 5:20]
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
[/QUOTE]
The law was added not to catch more people, but to increase their sin, as all have already sinned. This is for the greater glory of God, not for us. The law was enacted through angels (possibly including or exclusively fallen angels), by a mediator (God)
[QUOTE=Galatians 3:19]
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
[/QUOTE]
There is some support that one would not be held accountable for sins before one develops a moral code, though I don’t know where that scripture is, but is commonly cited when referring to young children and the unborn being saved.
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob]
Unless he came not to save us but to show us what a life truly lived In God can be like; and if he died not as a sacrifice for sin, but as the ultimate example of not returning evil for evil; and if he came back to demonstrate that a life lived In God is not bound by bodily death.
[/QUOTE]
This doesn’t really work either, Jesus lived a life we couldn’t. This would be more like God thumbing his nose at us saying look I can do it, why can’t you.
I’m not saying your experience was false, I do believe it really happened, I do question what entity you contacted, Biblically your experience would strongly indicate Satan and strongly indicate not God. I would like to point out the words of Lord Jesus:
[QUOTE=John 9:41]
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
[/QUOTE]
Would you say that Jesus is judging here?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I am asking you to quit judging others, Jesus said not to judge, so why do you continue to judge me as deceived?
[/QUOTE]
I am assuming that you are not doing it to intentionally mislead people, but you are correct, I have judged you innocent when I don’t know, but I will not condemn you. I do ask for your forgiveness. Also I have the promise of Romans 8:33 “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.”
Does your version of Jesus give you that promise? Are you sure you want to judge me?
The basic premise is wrong. We can’t do those things in our flesh to the standard that God requires, it won’t bear fruit of the Spirit. You have to live by the Spirit to be able to do the teachings of Jesus.
You have selectivity left out most of the teachings of Jesus which is the most important part, the rest will follow for those who accept Jesus as Lord. Also I don’t believe I have claimed Christianity as that gets confused with the man made religion, but I prefer believer, follower of Jesus or born again.
Forgive me if I’m wrong but you seem to be judging me pretty often.
Accept Jesus as your Lord, make Him the Lord of your life, surrender your life to Him. Practically speaking it means something like getting on your knees, saying to Lord Jesus “Jesus I surrender all my ways and myself totally to You, body, mind and spirit, I don’t want to run my own life, I want You to come into my life and heart and be my Lord and my God” and mean it.
That’s it. The rest is now up to Lord Jesus as He now owns you.
There is His chosen people, which can be considered special ones, and Jesus did have a favorite disciple, so there is 'precedent for special one’s, but that doesn’t stop Jesus from coming to anyone who asks.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I’m not saying your experience was false, I do believe it really happened, I do question what entity you contacted, Biblically your experience would strongly indicate Satan and strongly indicate not God. I would like to point out the words of Lord Jesus:
Would you say that Jesus is judging here?
I am assuming that you are not doing it to intentionally mislead people, but you are correct, I have judged you innocent when I don’t know, but I will not condemn you. I do ask for your forgiveness. Also I have the promise of Romans 8:33 “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.”
Does your version of Jesus give you that promise? Are you sure you want to judge me?
The basic premise is wrong. We can’t do those things in our flesh to the standard that God requires, it won’t bear fruit of the Spirit. You have to live by the Spirit to be able to do the teachings of Jesus.
You have selectivity left out most of the teachings of Jesus which is the most important part, the rest will follow for those who accept Jesus as Lord. Also I don’t believe I have claimed Christianity as that gets confused with the man made religion, but I prefer believer, follower of Jesus or born again.
Forgive me if I’m wrong but you seem to be judging me pretty often.
Accept Jesus as your Lord, make Him the Lord of your life, surrender your life to Him. Practically speaking it means something like getting on your knees, saying to Lord Jesus “Jesus I surrender all my ways and myself totally to You, body, mind and spirit, I don’t want to run my own life, I want You to come into my life and heart and be my Lord and my God” and mean it.
That’s it. The rest is now up to Lord Jesus as He now owns you.
There is His chosen people, which can be considered special ones, and Jesus did have a favorite disciple, so there is 'precedent for special one’s, but that doesn’t stop Jesus from coming to anyone who asks.
[/QUOTE]
I can only assume we are talking about different Gods. I was given life and free will to choose my path. My God loves me and all the people of the world equally. He has no favorites. Your God lives in the Bible, while mine is free from the literature of mankind. You read your God’s word from the pages of that book, and there is nothing you can read from that book to frighten me. On the other hand my God lives in the hearts of men and speaks to us heart to heart, love to love. If someone took away your Bible your God would disappear and you would not be able to find Him again. But if someone took everything I own, even my life, I would still dwell in God as He dwells in me. I challenge you to look no more in material things for your God, but seek the Kingdom of God that lies within you as taught by Jesus.
So, if Satan deceives someone, and because of his deception, that person loves the Lord Jesus, and strives to live according to the Lord’s example, that person is condemned?
Sorry, I can’t buy that.
You are, each and all of you saved by the Grace of Christ, the Word of God. Now, get to work.
Tris
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
So, if Satan deceives someone, and because of his deception, that person loves the Lord Jesus, and strives to live according to the Lord’s example, that person is condemned?
Sorry, I can’t buy that.
You are, each and all of you saved by the Grace of Christ, the Word of God. Now, get to work.
Tris
[/QUOTE]
If Satan existed I don’t think he would make that mistake. On with the works, yes, by all means, however, God doesn’t need to “save” us, He never lost us nor condemned us. Love
lekatt again you spew lies from the pit of hell and pronounce judgment on me. The enemy has a grip on you and in the name of Jesus I rebuke and come against that enemy and spirit of the antichrist that dwells within you:
The Word of God will never pass away, and is not literature of mankind, but the Word of God:
[QUOTE=Mark 13:31]
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
[/QUOTE]
But God has also written Christ on our hearts:
[QUOTE=2 Corinthians 3:3]
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
[/QUOTE]
So no we don’t need the Bible - the Word will never pass away, it is the Holy Spirit living inside the believer that guides us to all truth, the Word of God is written on our hearts, it’s the job of the Holy Spirit to guide us using any method He choses:
[QUOTE=John 16:13]
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
[/QUOTE]
You are underestimating the power of God who Loves us and knows us so well:
[QUOTE=Zephaniah 3:17]
The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
[/QUOTE]
and
[QUOTE=Matthew 10:30]
And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
[/QUOTE]
To assume that we need the ‘Book’
But God has provided His word in the Bible as a tool for us:
[QUOTE=2 Timothy 3:16]
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
[/QUOTE]
and
[QUOTE=Eph 6:17]
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
[/QUOTE]
There is only one God and God is One:
My God is the Lord Jesus Christ, yours is a deceiver and the father of lies.
You instruct followers to do the works of Jesus in their own effort, when Jesus Himself did no work on His own but in total submission to the Spirit of God.
[QUOTE=John 10]
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
[/QUOTE]
You instruct people to do what they can not achieve on their own and bind them to the Law which brings death:
[QUOTE=Romans 8:2]
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
[/QUOTE]
The Love of the Father through sending His Son Jesus has provided the way, not works but faith alone, that is His teachings, not such worldly rules as ‘don’t judge others’ which that one is impossible for us to follow and one that you have violated in this thread, teacher lekatt, but just to believe in Him - that is total and complete. That is the way, and shows the unconditional Love of God.
.
Here is a teaching of Jesus that shows how your taking parts out of context is a lie:
[QUOTE=John 14:12]
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
[/QUOTE]
How do you expect to keep the law, such as don’t judge others, first you can’t, yet the teachings of Jesus states that anyone who has faith in Him will do even greater things then Lord Jesus. Do you expect your human effort of love could ever allow you to preform miraculous acts and signs that Jesus preformed? No! Such acts is only possible with God. That is the teaching of Jesus.
[QUOTE=Ga 3]
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
[/QUOTE]
We are all given free will, you use yours to bind you to the law and therefore death and lead other to death, instead of freedom through the Spirit and life through belief in Lord Jesus
Considering your ‘god’, this is not applicable, and I’d wag not true.
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
So, if Satan deceives someone, and because of his deception, that person loves the Lord Jesus, and strives to live according to the Lord’s example, that person is condemned?
Sorry, I can’t buy that.
[/QUOTE]
You don’t have to buy that. Satan is not going to lead people to Christ, Satan will distort Christ and His message so you don’t know Christ, but a image Satan has created of Jesus.
But God is merciful and is far easier on those who are deceived then those who rebel against Him knowingly.
You are saved by faith alone, not work.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
lekatt again you spew lies from the pit of hell and pronounce judgment on me. The enemy has a grip on you and in the name of Jesus I rebuke and come against that enemy and spirit of the antichrist that dwells within you. . .
[/QUOTE]
Nope; not judgmental at all.
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob]
Nope; not judgmental at all.
[/QUOTE]
If you saw a blind person guiding other blind people on a path that leads over a cliff, would it be judging them to warn them?
If you saw a sighted man intentionally leading a blind man astray, would it be judging the blind man by rebuking the sighted man?
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
If you saw a blind person guiding other blind people on a path that leads over a cliff, would it be judging them to warn them?
[/quote]
Yep. You judge their ability to trust others and make rational choices, amongst others. You’ve judged them unable to fully grasp the situation - i’d probably agree with you that they might not (or at least that warning them is probably a good thing to do); but it’s still judging.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Yep. You judge their ability to trust others and make rational choices, amongst others. You’ve judged them unable to fully grasp the situation - i’d probably agree with you that they might not (or at least that warning them is probably a good thing to do); but it’s still judging.
[/QUOTE]
Would it not be showing love to warn this person? If you are bound by the law, which is what lekatt teaches, you sin, and the penalty for sin is death, but if you live by the spirit you have life and are not condemned by the law.
This is what the good news is aka gospel. God knows we can’t follow the law, and if we are under it we will die. All God requires is that you accept Jesus as your Lord, to believe in Him. Besides knowing that Jesus is the Son of God who died for us and was raised no other thing is required, no Bible, no teachings, no Sunday worship to accept this free gift. This is the teaching of Jesus.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Would it not be showing love to warn this person? If you are bound by the law, which is what lekatt teaches, you sin, and the penalty for sin is death, but if you live by the spirit you have life and are not condemned by the law.
[/quote]
Sure. I’d consider it a very good thing. I mean, even if it turns out they know what they’re doing, you’ve still tried to do a good thing. But it being out of love doesn’t mean there’s no judgement involved.
Well, you kinda need all those things to get an idea of who the guy is in the first place (though IIRC you don’t think unbelievers can have a true idea, you need to be shown the right general direction).
[QUOTE=RT]
But it being out of love doesn’t mean there’s no judgement involved.
[/QUOTE]
Yes Jesus used a similar example of how obeying one law meant breaking another, which just adds to we can’t keep them, as we can’t see these ‘traps’ that can be set up to get us into a no win situation.
[QUOTE=RT]
Well, you kinda need all those things to get an idea of who the guy is in the first place (though IIRC you don’t think unbelievers can have a true idea, you need to be shown the right general direction).
[/QUOTE]
This goes hand and hand with the Father must call someone. So the person to be called will be given the foundation needed for this to happen, God will provide that and that is God’s job, not ours. This will usually happen by believers submitting to the Holy Spirit.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
You are saved by faith alone, not work.
[/QUOTE]
I did not claim that work would save me. I merely expressed the thought that we, who are saved by the Grace of God should get to work.
Tris
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
I did not claim that work would save me. I merely expressed the thought that we, who are saved by the Grace of God should get to work.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, misunderstood.
Peace in Christ
kb
I have read the Bible front to back as one normally reads a book more than once. Doing that provides a different perspect than quoting small pieces of it out of context. I did not find the doctrine you preach there. My experience taught me to love others, forgive others, and not to judge others. The same teachings as Jesus taught, so I will continue to teach these truths so others may know how to live a more abundant life. Your teachings do not agree with the teachings of Jesus so I have done all I can do. It is now time to shake the dust from my feet and move on. I will leave you with the Love chapter, so you may know how important the teaching of love was to the early Christians. I was told in my experience this was all anyone needed to know from the Bible.
God is unconditional Love.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
If you saw a blind person guiding other blind people on a path that leads over a cliff, would it be judging them to warn them?
If you saw a sighted man intentionally leading a blind man astray, would it be judging the blind man by rebuking the sighted man?
[/QUOTE]
Let me be real clear: telling Lekatt that he “spews lies from the pits of hell” is pretty judgmental. You’ve judged him a liar; to be as charitable toward you as I can, you’ve judged him a fool.
Rationalize it all you want, wrap all the Bible citations around it that you can, you’ve judged and condemned him already. I call sanctimony.
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob]
Let me be real clear: telling Lekatt that he “spews lies from the pits of hell” is pretty judgmental. You’ve judged him a liar; to be as charitable toward you as I can, you’ve judged him a fool.
Rationalize it all you want, wrap all the Bible citations around it that you can, you’ve judged and condemned him already. I call sanctimony.
[/QUOTE]
No Genghis Bob I have judged the enemy spirit of the antichrist that is influencing lekatt, an enemy that is already stands condemned. I have not condemned lekatt, I was speaking to the spirit, I have and do pray for lekatt’s deliverance.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
No Genghis Bob I have judged the enemy spirit of the antichrist that is influencing lekatt, an enemy that is already stands condemned. I have not condemned lekatt, I was speaking to the spirit, I have and do pray for lekatt’s deliverance.
[/QUOTE]
When you are speaking to enemy spirits (whatever or whoever that might be) would please not use my name. I do think that is a clever way to deceive yourself into thinking you are not judging. I will pray for you that you can open your heart to the love of God so you can have peace.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
lekatt again you spew lies from the pit of hell and pronounce judgment on me. The enemy has a grip on you and in the name of Jesus I rebuke and come against that enemy and spirit of the antichrist that dwells within you:
[/QUOTE]
I realize that you will say that you are only claiming that lekatt’s beliefs are supplied from hell and that you are not claiming that he is intentionally trying to deceive, however your expression violates the rules of this Forum.
Do not say that another poster lies.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
If you saw a sighted man intentionally leading a blind man astray, would it be judging the blind man by rebuking the sighted man?
[/QUOTE]
Rationalize your invective however you wish–elsewhere. In this Forum, you will refrain from making that claim against another poster. If you cannot find a way to do that, then do not post.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
There is only one God and God is One:
My God is the Lord Jesus Christ, yours is a deceiver and the father of lies.
[/QUOTE]
So, first you say that there is only one god, then you continue, directly, to contradict yourself and claim that lekatt has a different god and associate that with your concept of the devil.*
Enough!
If you want to proselytize your version of belief, you are welcome to do so.
You will not, however, use that as a cover to insult other posters.
[ /Moderating ]
