With all due respect tomndebb the sighted man is Satan, the blind man lekatt
There is one God, but many gods.
I needed to address them specifically, so I was talking to the spirits inside you, so I used your name, if you prefer I will make it more clear in the future.
The message of Jesus has been summed up so many times is John 3:16:
It is the probably most quoted verse to describe the teachings of Jesus. The requirement is to “believe in Him” and no works of your own effort are part of that.
lekatt, may the Lord Jesus bless you, and peace in Christ.
kb
Jesus did not write that verse, John did, many years after the D and R of Jesus. One can interpret it in different ways, I would think if you believed in Jesus you would follow Him and His teachings as He asks His followers to do good works.
I have never been able to find where Jesus says He came to be a human sacrifice on the cross for the sins of mankind.
The closest Jesus quotes…
Matthew 20:28 also Mark 10:45
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 26:27-28
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
God wrote that verse through His servant John who wrote it in submission to the Holy Spirit.
In addition to what FriarTed cited, the entire old testament is thrown open by Jesus’ words:
which bring in Is 55:5
The problem with Bible quote interpretation is they never really say what the interpreter says they do. One has to read into the verse the desired meaning. But the biggest problem with the salvation doctrine is its unbelievability.
We have God the father sending God the son to earth to be a human sacrifice to God the father for the sins of mankind. Back when sacrifices were the preferred method of appeasing the Gods this no doubt seemed logical. But doesn’t today.
Agreed. I’ve never really understood how that whole sacrifice for sins thing “worked”. Why would God require a blood sacrifice for sin? And if he truly required a blood sacrifice, how could a sacrifice of himself to himself be acceptable?
Forgive me, Oh Lord, for I know not what I do. When I speak out, it is my own voice that is heard. When I do works to please You, I please myself. Although I am lifted up beyond my own self, yet I still fall. Righteousness is not in me, my Lord, but in You.
Don’t follow Christians. Follow the Lord. It is your heart He will know, not the lessons you have learned from others. So, make of your heart a dwelling place for the Lord. Over the hearts of others, you have neither knowledge, nor authority. Our judgment is the judgment of the world, and we will pass out of that judgment when we pass out of the world.
In answer to the OP, I don’t think anyone counts your coats when you get to Heaven. They sing with overwhelming joy that you are among them. Share the joy.
Tris
I belief some research can be done in order to find out just when this doctrine entered the Christian church. I do know that it was not there at the beginning. It was Luther and the reformation that instilled the doctrine of faith not works leads to salvation around 1483. I once knew but have forgotten, I think it was rather recently in the history of Christianity.
You tell em’ Dog. 
My posts were not to destroy Christianity but to fulfill it. To bring back the core teachings of the early church which so profoundly effected mankind. It was the doctrines that split the congregation into a thousand churches and it will be the teachings of Jesus that reunite them.
Constantine saw the peaceful, happy, non-complaining Christians as what he needed to people his empire and made Christianity the official religion. Not so much today.
Jesus taught us to love one another, to love your neighbors, and to love your enemies. That covers everyone. This love He talked about was not for the benefit of others, or your neighbors, or your enemies. This love was for your own benefit. Then, as today, people were full of fear, all kinds of fear, of death, of being hurt, of losing their possessions, etc. When love enters, fear flees. Practicing love heals the body and the spirit.
A reality test: think of someone or something you hate. Study it to find something positive to say about it. Then say positive things about the hated thing, forgive it, forgive it for causing you to hate and forgive yourself for hating. Then move on to not judging the thing, not putting your expectations upon it letting it be free from you in all ways. Do this everyday for a week. You will feel uplifted, better about yourself and the world. This is only the beginning.
Hmm, doesn’t seem to have worked. Lekatt is still saying the same thing. Maybe Jesus doesn’t read GD, perhaps you should repost in the pit. Maybe he’ll see it then.
Let us know how the whole “rebuking the enemy spirit” thing works out for you, mmkay?
Not sure about anything else, but as far as a sacrifice of oneself goes, it’s not all that uncommon. Odin’s supposed to have done a similar thing (and for longer, too ;)).
I think the problem is there is no cliff except the one you’ve created in your mind and believe to be true. Out of love I may tell my kids or a good friend that I sincerely think they’re making a bad decision and headed in the wrong direction, but I also honor their right to choose their own path, realizing that I’ve offered them my opinion , not God’s.
You seem to have deferred the responsibility of your own judgments by cloaking them in religious jargon. That type of judgment is an old story. The Pharisee’s criticized Jesus, thinking they were the authority on God’s will. I’d agree with Bob on this one. It’s sanctimony , and yes, that’s my personal judgment and opinion.
And this is a traditional Christian belief that has no solid support in the very scriptures you revere. It is a personal and group conclusion accepted and taught as truth. It also flies in the face of existing hard evidence. IMO it’s an example of Christianity , among others, clinging to tradition and dogma and preferring them to the truth.
I’d agree about the fruits of the spirit. We’d disagree on what constitutes fruits of the spirit. I’m reminded of an saying I’ve heard “God is the well from which all love is drawn”
If God created and maintains, permeates, and rules all creation, and also sees the true intent of our hearts, then surely all true good works are ultimately from God. Jesus talks of people who do good works in order to be seen as good by other people and says, “they have their reward” but people from any religion or any culture who sincerely seek God, love and truth in their hearts or anyone who preforms an act of real charity love and compassion, must have some connection to the HS even if they’re not aware of it, or don’t name it such.
Okay. I’d stress that acts of sincere love and compassion are “in the likeness of Christ” even if if by those who don’t believe the traditional Christian beliefs about Jesus. Gandhi is an example I use. He lived the teachings of Jesus as a Hindu.
Too often organized religion focuses on form, doctrine, and terminology, rather than the heartfelt spirit reflected in the actions of the individual. The image and name of Jesus and using the proper Christian language become more important than acts of true love and compassion. If someone commits an act of true charity but practices Buddhism rather than Christianity then it must not be an act of charity. It’s tragically narrow minded IMO.
Okay, stressing that the right path is within just as Jesus indicated the kingdom of heaven is within. It is the true intent of our heart rather than any doctrine.
I can see why you might compare my beliefs to Universalism but I assure you, they have gone from a more traditional Christian belief system to where they are now from independent study and experience. I know I have much more to learn.
I will take your word for this. I’m curious as to how you came to have beliefs so close to many traditional Christian beliefs. Something must have influenced you.
Let’s keep in mind that lots of people who don’t agree feel led by the Holy Spirit. That should also teach us something about the nature of inspiration and how the spirit interacts with us.
OKay, IMO it is the spirit already within us calling us toward the truth and love of our spiritual nature that moves seekers to recognize those fruits of the spirit. We are God’s children and that connection exists within us. When an experience moves us the spirit calls, “this way, this way” and we choose whether or not we follow. It’s like the parable of the seeds in MAtt 13. Mark 4 and Luke 8.
Luke 8:11
In this case I don’t believe the word of God is the written word but it is the living word of the spirit in our hearts.
I would say those who are fully surrendered must be completely Christlike. Do you know many people like that? I sure don’t. I’m talking about those who recognize and have chosen the truth and love as their guiding principles. Many may be spiritual or religious but they probably recognize their shortcomings as well and know their journey is far from over. Surrendering is a process IMO and for most people lasts our whole life.
Let’s not label it that way. I’m sharing my thoughts and beliefs with you not any denominations doctrine. I’ve done little or no studying about what Universalists believe.
Interesting that you who just claimed that your own beliefs were from your own independent study rather than from some churches doctrine now use the term
“non standard interpretations of certain verses” A search for truth shouldn’t give “standard interpretations” much weight should it?
IMO God alone judges the true intent of our heart. Jesus points out that saying we surrender to God doesn’t make it so. A sincere heart that seeks love and truth is doing the will of God and following Jesus , even if that individual rejects the doctrine and teachings of traditional Christianity.
My advice would be that, realizing we have much more to learn. we should claim our right to determine our own path and decide where God, or truth and love, are leading us while honoring that freedom in others. I think we close off our ability to learn and “fully surrender” as you put it, if we are too certain we already know.
My older brother asked me to read Leviticus saying it would help me understand the blood sacrifice of Jesus. I read it, and it only convinced me even more how misguided that particular doctrine is.
Leviticus is in the old testament, years and years before Jesus.
You don’t say!!
Many Christians believe their is some connection between the laws of the Old Testament and the sacrifices commanded there and the ultimate pay for all sins sacrifice of Jesus. I think my brother was thinking that Leviticus might help me understand that connection. It didn’t.
So far, I believe that Jesus was an example of what our relationship to God and each other should be. Dieing was no sacrifice if you knew a heavenly reward was waiting and physical suffering and blood cannot pay for someone else’s sins.
I think it’s misguided for many Christians to focus on that rather than a personal transformation.
Absolutely, but personal transformation is much harder than just saying you believe in something.