Christians: is the opprobrium heaped on Judas fundamentally unfair?

Great Debates
1

Judas ISCARIOT of course. Nobody’s got any issues with the Zealot that I know of.

As the story is generally told, Jesus was entirely unsurprised by his crucifixion. It was part of his father’s plan, after all, and though he’s hardly anxious to undergo the torturous murder part of the exercise, he was willing to submit. Thus Judas is merely an actor doing the task appointed to him. Moreover, Christ clearly could have prevented the betrayal. He knew it was coming at the Last Supper, so he could have told Peter, John, et al to keep Judas from leaving the upper room, or done so himself. (Clearly Mary’s son was a muscular fellow, having cleant out the temple all by his lonesome.) Failing that, he could have let Judas depart and then gone somewhere else that night, as presumably he knew what Judas was going to tell the priests. That seems the wisest course: let the spy leave and then depart from Jeruselam by an alternate route. It’s not like Judas left a spider-tracer in his master’s robes.

But Christ does no such thing, for he accepts the crucifixion as his father’s will, and thus Judas is Elohim’s agent as much as the Sanhedrin’s.

So why the hate for Judas?

2

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
Judas ISCARIOT of course. Nobody’s got any issues with the Zealot that I know of.

As the story is generally told, Jesus was entirely unsurprised by his crucifixion. It was part of his father’s plan, after all, and though he’s hardly anxious to undergo the torturous murder part of the exercise, he was willing to submit. Thus Judas is merely an actor doing the task appointed to him. Moreover, Christ clearly could have prevented the betrayal. He knew it was coming at the Last Supper, so he could have told Peter, John, et al to keep Judas from leaving the upper room, or done so himself. (Clearly Mary’s son was a muscular fellow, having cleant out the temple all by his lonesome.) Failing that, he could have let Judas depart and then gone somewhere else that night, as presumably he knew what Judas was going to tell the priests. That seems the wisest course: let the spy leave and then depart from Jeruselam by an alternate route. It’s not like Judas left a spider-tracer in his master’s robes.

But Christ does no such thing, for he accepts the crucifixion as his father’s will, and thus Judas is Elohim’s agent as much as the Sanhedrin’s.

So why the hate for Judas?
[/QUOTE]

First, it was a disciple named Simon who was the Zealot. Most people who reference to a Zealot disciple named Judas are supposing that Judas Iscariot was a Zealot (the argument being that “Iscariot” derives from “Sicarii”- daggermen.)

We are told in the Gospels that Judas pilferred from the fund of which he was treasurer, that he was outraged at Mary of Bethany’s waste of perfume on Jesus’ feet, and that after that, he went to the priests offering to hand Jesus over to them for a price. Also, that Satan entered him as he went to turn Jesus in. Jesus is reported to have referred to him as a “diabolos/devil”, the “son of destruction”, and one who would have been better off not being born.

We like to try to rehabilitate Judas, to rationalize his actions, because they seem at face value to be so idiotic, and conversely also because he recognize ourselves in him. We can see why one would betray him for very misguided “seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time” reasons. There may be something to that, and it may well be that in the end, Judas either was or will be restored to God. However, what we are shown of him in Scripture is an object lesson- don’t betray Jesus!

As for Judas being an instrument of God’s plan- well, God could have gotten JC crucified quite well without Judas. Even if his betrayal was in God’s plan, Judas may well have been an enthusiastic willing agent for his own reasons. The Hebrew Bible refers to various Gentile invaders as God’s tools of punishment upon Israel, but also notes that these invaders are under God’s judgment for
their excesses against Israel.

3

In one of Jorge Luis Borges’ essays he discusses that Jesus, knowing he was the son of God and would be resurrected, actually sacrificed very little. Judas, on the other hand, gave up his soul to an eternity of damnation to bring about Jesus’ crucifixion, and is therefore the one who made the true sacrifice.

4

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
As for Judas being an instrument of God’s plan- well, God could have gotten JC crucified quite well without Judas. Even if his betrayal was in God’s plan, Judas may well have been an enthusiastic willing agent for his own reasons. The Hebrew Bible refers to various Gentile invaders as God’s tools of punishment upon Israel, but also notes that these invaders are under God’s judgment for
their excesses against Israel.
[/QUOTE]

So could Judas have gone against god’s plan? What if, after Jesus told everyone he was going to be betrayed, Judas changed his mind and didn’t do it? Would he be some kind of hero? Or the man who thwarted god’s plan to have a bad weekend for our sins?

5

[QUOTE=Sublight]
Judas, on the other hand, gave up his soul to an eternity of damnation to bring about Jesus’ crucifixion, and is therefore the one who made the true sacrifice.
[/QUOTE]
Nah. Judas didn’t “give up” his soul, he sold it. He just set the price for his soul absurdly low but it wasn’t a sacrifice.

Jesus knew better than anyone what the result of his crucifixion would be and yet still spent the night agonizing over it and praying to his Father that he wouldn’t have to go through with it (“My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.” […] “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”) I don’t think it can be waved off as no big deal.

6

Had Judas not betrayed Jesus, it would simply have happened at another place and time. The Chief Priests et. al. were not simply going to stop trying to grab Jesus because it wasn’t wholly convenient.

7

[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Had Judas not betrayed Jesus, it would simply have happened at another place and time. The Chief Priests et. al. were not simply going to stop trying to grab Jesus because it wasn’t wholly convenient.
[/QUOTE]

So what his apostles got him out of the city? Jerusalem, I think? Isn’t that where everything was supposed to go down? What if he just never went back?

8

[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
What if he just never went back?
[/QUOTE]
Why would he do that? He didn’t want to be crucified but he accepted it.

I guess you can ask what if his disciples threw a pillow case over his head and carried him off but I don’t think anyone can give an intelligent answer.

9

[QUOTE=Jophiel]
Why would he do that? He didn’t want to be crucified but he accepted it.

I guess you can ask what if his disciples threw a pillow case over his head and carried him off but I don’t think anyone can give an intelligent answer.
[/QUOTE]

But his apostles kidnapping him is the same as Judas not selling Jesus out. If Judas was supposed to betray him, then his apostles were supposed to not kidnap him. If it’s possible to change one aspect of what’s supposed to happen, it’s possible to change others.

Judas had to betray Jesus, according to the scripture we know. It was necessary for the whole ‘sacrifice my son for your sins’ thing to happen. If it was possible to do the whole thing without Judas’ betrayal, and subsequent suicide, then why wasn’t it done that way?

10

People can do the wrong thing, even for the wrong reasons, and have it turn out well. That doesn’t mean the original wrong is less worthy of condemnation.

To take an extreme example, murdering Bruce Wayne’s parents was a bad thing, even though it created a force for good in Gotham City.

Yes, yes, I know - he wasn’t prepared for it, and Jesus was.

Regards,
Shodan

11

[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
But his apostles kidnapping him is the same as Judas not selling Jesus out. If Judas was supposed to betray him, then his apostles were supposed to not kidnap him. If it’s possible to change one aspect of what’s supposed to happen, it’s possible to change others.
[/quote]
Sure, but it’s not possible for us to intelligently discuss what would have happened. It’s like the “What if Hitler invaded America?” questions. Except that’s probably easier to guess on since it was a larger force than 11 guys and a Messiah slung over a mule.

[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
Judas had to betray Jesus, according to the scripture we know. It was necessary for the whole ‘sacrifice my son for your sins’ thing to happen. If it was possible to do the whole thing without Judas’ betrayal, and subsequent suicide, then why wasn’t it done that way?
[/QUOTE]
Because Judas didn’t want it done that way.

In other words, nothing forced Judas to sell himself out for a bag of silver coins. He helped the story along but he wasn’t some unwilling pawn, unable to do anything except betray Jesus.

12

[QUOTE=Jophiel]
In other words, nothing forced Judas to sell himself out for a bag of silver coins. He helped the story along but he wasn’t some unwilling pawn, unable to do anything except betray Jesus.
[/QUOTE]

What about the prophecy? What about Jesus’ prediction? According to scripture, this had to happen. Could Judas have not done it?

13

[QUOTE=Jophiel]
Nah. Judas didn’t “give up” his soul, he sold it. He just set the price for his soul absurdly low but it wasn’t a sacrifice.

[/QUOTE]
I’d say take it up with Borges, but the old librarian’s dead. Oh, well… In any case, when one looks upon Judas Iscariot (the other Judas is Judas Thaddeus) in the context of this story one has to remind oneself that the Gospel is** not ** journalistic reportage. It’s a heroic retrospective of the founders of the early Christian Church, set down 40 to 60 years after the fact, largely by first-generation new Christians recounting what the surviving original founders had told them. As such many of the players have their real-person characterization overlayered with archetypes, and many of the behaviors are filtered through the particular POV of the guy from whom they heard it.

From the POV of their fellow apostles, immediately after the events, Judas plain and simply sold JC out, never mind deep psychological motivations, and JC was so great and so on-message that rather than run away from it he took it like a (Son of) Man. Soon after, Judas dies under unpleasant circumstances (either hangs himself or falls off a cliff depending on which apostle is telling the tale; maybe he hangs himself AND then the rope breaks and he drops off the cliff) so from where they were sitting, it looks like God must have had a good reason to smite him.

Apparently the fellow apostles were suspecting him of sticky fingers with the finances all along (how come Matthew Levi was not named treasurer??) so this must have made them conclude, oh, so he was really up to no good all along, the Devil must have been in him.

Now, as the narrative becomes more elaborate over the years, it turns out that JC took it like a Man because he was the only one with all the pages of the script, and the end result is the followers now have a mission even greater than any they originally imagined. Groovy, but… Judas still got smit, didn’t he? So God must still be mad at him for something… Well, as *Shodan ** put it, thispart of the story communicates that doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason is still a “wrong” even if the end result is a net good. Also, when tied together with the way that Pilate is whitewashed as being merely spineless before public opinion, rather than actively evil, it communicates a message of: "don’t join us and then * turn on us; even if all turns out for the better in the end, you will be treated more harshly for being one of us and turning on us, than if you’re merely an outsider opressing us."

(Of course, a modern writer could have had repentant Judas run up Golgotha and throw himself at the foot of the cross begging the dying Jesus for mercy, only to be killed by the soldiers the very instant JC breathes his last w/o another word, leaving us all with an eternal cliffhanger. Take it up with the authors… also dead :wink: )

14

[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
What about the prophecy? What about Jesus’ prediction? According to scripture, this had to happen. Could Judas have not done it?
[/QUOTE]
The Old Testament prophecy don’t mention Judas by name or anything. If not him, someone else.

As for the sacrifice of Judas vs the sacrifice of Jesus, the only record we have to go on are the Gospels and I suppose any extra-Biblical gospels if you want to include them. As written, it’s pretty clear that Judas decided to betray Jesus for a price and that Jesus willingly underwent an ordeal he very much didn’t want to go through. So, as far as definitive answers, that’s the best we’ve got. We can try to pick apart the story and start giving people motives, feelings and directions not explicitly mentioned in the Gospels but I’d always view any conclusions drawn from that well to be inferior without new evidence to support them.

That’s my take on it anyway and it doesn’t even matter if the Bible is true or not. If it is a factual account then there’s not much room for questions. If it’s just a story then the story goes as described. The only real room for question is if we could somehow draw a plausible argument that the events did happen but that the Bible didn’t record them accurately.

15

I’ve heard that Judas’s true fall was because he went and committed suicide-rejecting any attempt to go and ask for forgiveness and repent?

16

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

As many as God wants.

Judas was always going to betray Jesus because he was destined to do so from the instant of creation.

17

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
I’ve heard that Judas’s true fall was because he went and committed suicide-rejecting any attempt to go and ask for forgiveness and repent?
[/QUOTE]

Which is indeed another possibility. Bishop Fulton Sheen noted that the real tragedy of Judas is, up until his suicide, he could have been been redeemed and become known as Saint Judas. Maybe on the other side, he is or will be redeemed. Maybe not. If not, it is by his own choice.

18

[QUOTE=FriarTed]

Also, that Satan entered him as he went to turn Jesus in. Jesus is reported to have referred to him as a “diabolos/devil”, the “son of destruction”, and one who would have been better off not being born.

As for Judas being an instrument of God’s plan- well, God could have gotten JC crucified quite well without Judas. Even if his betrayal was in God’s plan, Judas may well have been an enthusiastic willing agent for his own reasons. The Hebrew Bible refers to various Gentile invaders as God’s tools of punishment upon Israel, but also notes that these invaders are under God’s judgment for
their excesses against Israel.
[/QUOTE]

Satan clearly knew who Jesus was, and his importance. In that case, when he entered Judas, wouldn’t he attempt to prevent Judas from turning Jesus in? Wouldn’t it be in Satan’s best interest for Jesus to die in his sleep, be run over by a chariot, or choke on a grape or something?

19

Heh. Nikos Kazantzakis saw Judas as In On The Plan, which makes a goofy kind of sense. So if his death really was a suicide, then he just had a moment of despond after.

I just realized, though: with the conflicting accounts, it seems the suicide explanation is not terribly likely to be the truth. Perhaps he died accidentally, & later writers ascribed suicidal motives for some reason. Or perhaps he killed himself & a later writer took his agency away so God could smite him. Or maybe other disciples killed him in vengance & the different stories arise from the lies they told about it.

20

[QUOTE=Voyager]
Satan clearly knew who Jesus was, and his importance. In that case, when he entered Judas, wouldn’t he attempt to prevent Judas from turning Jesus in? Wouldn’t it be in Satan’s best interest for Jesus to die in his sleep, be run over by a chariot, or choke on a grape or something?
[/QUOTE]

Viewed logically, perhaps yes, but I think the idea is that Satan’s nature is such that he can no more grasp God becoming incarnate as a human in order to redeem humanity through a humiliating and avoidable execution than Sauron could grasp that someone coming into possession of the One Ring might seek to destroy it instead of keeping it for himself.