Judas - Damned for all time?

Great Debates
1

Okay, Christians, I’m rather curious about this one.

Given the time of year it is, and the fact that I (gasp!) like Lloyd-Weber’s JC Superstar, I dragged the soundtrack out of retirement and gave it a listen today.

As such, I found myself wondering where Judas ended up.

I mean, according to the story in question, he sold Jesus out, an action that resulted in Jesus’ death. So, he should go to Hell for that - unless I’m completely mistaken.

However, he was also an unwitting pawn in “God’s Plan” - if he hadn’t turned Jesus in someone else would have had to do it, right? So why should he go to Hell for doing something that he really had no control over? (This, I realize, somewhat throws free will out the window, but bear with me.)

I’m more inclined to believe option 2 - at the very least he shouldn’t have sunk any lower than Purgatory. Not his fault, you know?

But, I’m wondering what doctorinal stances are on this subject; what does your particular church say happened to the poor guy?

2

Don’t you know by now: Christians aren’t allowed to judge people, only acts. Besides, he only told the police where to find him. The priests only put him on trial. Pilate also had no way of knowing the people wouldn’t want him pardoned. You’d have to condemn the entire justice system… :wink:

3

Very few people read Scripture any more, and fewer still read Roman history. Thus, people whose only knowledge of Judas comes from Andrew Lloyd Webber, and whose only knowledge of Brutus comes from the Cliff Notes to Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar,” are HORRIFIED when they read Dante’s “Inferno” and find Brutus and Judas together in the deepest pit of Hell. After all, the impression THEY got was that Judas and Brutus were decent guys, who betrayed their friends/masters out of the noblest motives! How could they deserve to be in Hell?

Well, truth is, Dante wasn’t any more qualified than Astorian or Webber or Shakespeare or JMullaney to judge why people we never knew did something 2000 years ago.

All we CAN say is what they did. We don’t know why. God alone knows whether Judas/Brutus were idealists or slimy opportunists who stabbed their masters in the back (literally in Brutus’ case, figuratively in Judas’). God has judged them accordingly. If I’m good/lucky enough to make it to Heaven, and find that Judas is there, God’s judgement will be fine with me. If, on the other hand, I wind up Judas’ roommate in Hell, I’ll STILL assume divine justice has been served.

In short, there is no set Christian doctrine on Judas.

4

Not being a student of Christianity or the Bible but having seen and also have the album**“Jesus Christ Superstar”**, I thought Judas killed himself. Would that not in itself send him to Hell, regardless what he did or didn’t do to Jesus?
Long Live Andrew Lloyd Webber!

5

There’s a short story by Borges (sorry, 2000 miles away from my library right now, don’t have the title) about a theologan who says Judas is the true savior because he choose to sacrifice and damn himself for eternity so the Son of God could rise to glory.

6

Of course, the Christian God judges according to deed, not intentions. What we can not judge, first and foremost, is whether Judas repented before his death.

7

Did someone say something about how very few people actually read Scripture anymore?

Mark 14:21: “For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born.”

Well, seeing as this quote comes from the Big Guy himself, I’m glad I’m not in Judas’s shoes whereever he is.

8

http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/TV/03/27/britain.jesus.ap/index.html

It also questions whether Judas betrayed Jesus to the Roman authorities, suggesting that a mistranslation could mask that fact that Jesus worked with Judas to provoke his own arrest.

Note: If Jesus was an Essene, as John the Baptist is assumed to have been, it would imply that his crucifixion was more or less anticipated, because the messiah was late in coming by Jesus’ time and the founder of the Qumran sect, aka “The Teacher of Righteousness,” was also crucified 150 years earlier, according to the Copper Scroll (Dead Sea Scrolls). Under this theory, it is surmised that many Essenes aspired to crucifixion, variants of which were a very common priestly act performed in Egypt, Phrygia, and even among Buddhists and Pythagoreans. This is a very fascinating subject. Essenes are also thought by many to be Jewish Pythagoreans.

9

You can find The Three Faces of Judas in Ficciones. (It is also collected in Labyrinths, I believe.)

10

Does this mean that if Judas accepted Jesus as his savior and asked forgiveness for his actions, then he made it into heaven?

If so, then that’s consistent with what Polycarp and Lauralee (and a few others) told me in this thread.

Can we discern from Scripture if Judas did repent?

11

Well, it’s fairly safe to say that Judas felt guilty. After all, he hung himself. But feeling guilt is not the same thing as repentance, so we really don’t know. Anyway you look at it, I feel sorry for him.

12

Brian – your comment reminds me of the way Judas’ role was played in The Last Temptation of Christ, with Judas being the reluctant accomplice.

But that’s not Scripture, although I love that movie’s treatment of the subject.

I don’t think Christianity has an opinion on whether he’s in heaven or hell. Zarathustra’s reference to the passage in Mark can be read in many ways. His “woe” can refer to his guilt. Here’s a guy who has to betray the Son of God, whether he knows it or not. It obviously took a heavy psychological toll on the guy as he was found hanging from a tree a few days later, as others have mentioned.

He didn’t have a choice in the matter. He HAD to betray Jesus. If he didn’t, there would be no salvation. The gates of heaven would not be opened without Judas.

I’m trying to think of it from his POV. Here’s Judas, chillin’ with the Savior of Mankind. Judas KNOWS he’s God. He’s seen the water-to-wine bit, he’s seen dead Lazarus walk again. I mean, the guy must have no doubt that he’s the Son of God. And he seems to get along with him fine. I mean, he dropped his whole life to be with him, listen to his teachings, carry out his work. He had a hell of a personal and spiritual investment in him. He’s certainly gotta be afraid of hell, as he is in the presence of proof that the God and the Devil exist. I really don’t think he would try to fuck things up and end up in the fryer for 13 or 31 pieces of gold or whatever the amount was. I don’t care how hard up financially you are, but when you’ve seen what Judas has seen, you’d probably be scared to bloody death of what happens in the beyond if you cross God.

If he had free will, I don’t think there’s a chance he would be tempted by the money. So, either one of two things happened, either he had no free will and was a pawn in God’s game OR he knew what his role had to be and knew that the salvation of humanity required his betrayal of Jesus. Wouldn’t that be a curse to you, knowing that your role is to betray God? Knowing that you’ll be the ultimate bad guy in history? That no matter how much you try to convince people you HAD to do it, nobody would believe you? Sucks, don’t it?

My opinion would be that either way, he can’t be in hell.

13

I’ve always viewed it this way. Judas is damned, in once sense, simply because he will be known throughout history as the man who betrayed Jesus to the authorities. That’s quite a label to be hung with. Think of all the people through the ages who have condemned him simply because of what he did! Amazing, if you think about it.

Now, is he damned “for all time”? Realistically, we don’t know. That kind of judgement is for God alone. Perhaps he will pardon Judas because he did what he thought was right, and did feel remose and try to make amends before killing himself in despair. I’ve always felt that he would be pardoned, simply because he did try to make things right before checking out the hard way. He committed the sin (if you want to call it that, that’s another debate), but did try to make things right.

14

Didn’t Jesus say that the only unforgivable sin was something along the lines of “blaspheming the Holy Spirit”? Could Judas have been guilty of this through his actions?

And as far as damnation goes, I’m still unclear whether that means “eternal torment” or merely being put to death once again after the Resurrection–the “second death”, I think it’s called somewhere in the Bible. If damnation does refer to the latter case, and Judas’s punishment is oblivion rather than eternal hellfire, how would that change the terms of this debate?

15

As Zarathustra mentioned, Jesus said “He who blasphemes against the SOn of Man will be forgiven, but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

Not everyone will agree with my interpretation, but here’s how I translate that:

“Many of the people who hate me (Jesus) and curse me are doing so out of ignorance. They hate and curse what they wrongly THINK is a mere human troublemaker. I can forgive them because they don’t really know what they’re doing. But anyone who sees my divinity, and STILL opposes me is evil, and beyond salvation.”

IF I’m reading Jesus correctly, this explains his words on the cross: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Did JUDAS know what he was doing? We don’t know. God knows, so I’m content to let Him judge.

I merely point out that you should NOT be basing your opinion of Judas on the “Jesus Christ Superstar” soundtrack! (Personally, I was a huge Deep Purple fan, but I’d become a Jew, a Scientologist, a Moonie, an atheist… ANYTHING but a CHristian, if I thought Jesus was anything like Ian Gillan!)

16

What about the idea that Judas felt that Jesus was not fulfilling his role as the Messiah. He hoped that turning Jesus in would force him to call in the heavenly host and clean out the heathens. Judas then hung himself because of the way things turned out. Good intentions and all that…

17

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” – Exodus 20:17

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment…” – Matthew 5:21-22

“You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” – Matthew 5:27-28

Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?” – Matthew 9:4

“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.” – Matthew 15:19

But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me?”-- Matthew 22:18

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.” – Matthew 23:27-28

Jesus replied: “`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’” – Matthew 22:37

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things?” – Mark 2:8

He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” – Mark 7:6

18

“Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” Mt 7:16-19

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." Mt 12:30-37

19

Could it be that the Bible does not present a perfectly consistent narrative?

How shocking.

20

Astorian, hon, I’m not a Christian anyway (see my .sig for details) but I feel this sudden need to clarify - I’m not basing anything on JC Superstar - it was just the catalyst that got me to thinking about the Biblical story of Judas is all. :slight_smile:

As to the rest of the thread - I haven’t added anything because I haven’t had anything to add - but I am reading and learning. Although MEB and joel did confuse me a bit this AM - but that’s what I get for reading the SDMB before I’m truly awake!