Then we add his blind supposition to everyone else’s and consider it equally.
Well, I can understand your position. But there are millions of people who have been in the presence of God, and each one of them thought it could never happen. They all had different ideas of what God was and how He acted in the world until they experienced being in the presence of Him. After that they are all together on God is unconditional love. There is no longer any doubt for them.
I could go into the logic of it all, but I won’t since there is so much skepticism. A healthy skepticism is not a bad thing unless you have been indoctrinated into religion or science. Both disciplines have extensive doctrines to keep their devotees loyal. It is much harder for them to grasp a world of consciousness, guided by a higher, wiser consciousness sometimes called God.
** lekatt**: You won’t go into the logic of it all because it just will not make sense.
Incidentally, these millions of people that have been in the presence of God, did they think to ask the OPs question?
I want to know how you know this has happened.
If it didn’t make sense I wouldn’t say it did.
There is no need to ask, the information is provided automatically.
I was there, I experienced it. So have millions of other people, and they also have written about it, a lot of them anyway.
It doesn’t make sense at all, explain
huh, huh?
And can you present evidence to back any of this up?
Isn’t the word of millions of other anonymous people, delivered second hand from their spokesman, enough for you?
So how come they all seem to disagree about it? If the same information was revealed by your god to millions of people wouldn’t they all have the same information?
Come now, only people who have been indoctrinated into science think that when people are describing the same thing that there should be any semblance of consistency in their observations. If you persist in entertaining that corruption, you’ll never agree with lekatt.
If you turn your back on everything science ever told you about making observations or understanding information, I’m sure you’ll find that the ‘logic’ you can construct with your remaining analytic facilities will allow you to believe everything.
Nope, just me.
They don’t all disagree, those that experienced agree God is love. Now, I bet you never read anything about it from the experiencers.
You tell 'em
No, of course not, scientists must have proof, not just any proof, but proof that is arrived at by the scientific “method” otherwise it just has to be delusions.
Where the religionist must be able to find it in the Bible or it can’t be anything but the work of the devil.
Har Har
Seems reasonable to me. Someone has an experience and decides to interpret it and put some label on it. It doesn’t prove anything one way or the other.
I once read a few links you posted in succession in a thread. They didn’t agree on much of anything.
Additionally, you have failed to demonstrate that these “experiencers” exist in the vast numbers that you claim they do. Frankly I don’t believe there are millions of not-part-of-a-religion people like you who have visions and whatonot like you claim to. When you cite “millions”, I immidiately assume that you are lumping in people of other religions such as mainstream christianity, who most certainly have not all had the experience you describe.
Here, we are talking about people who have experienced God, doesn’t matter how, or what their religion was or even if they had one. The common denominator is to experience God. I have never posted links with multiple experiences in them.
Here is a short one:
Right. I’m not convinced that there are millions of such people who all have had the same experience as each other. Generally speaking people’s religious experiences vary widely in the general and the specifics - even in the cases where they’re from the same religion.
I still think that you simply assume that some unreasonably large percentage of those who claim to have experienced god have had similar experiences to you. Not likely.
And I never said you posted many experiences in the same link; I said you posted many links in the same thread - which you certainly have done, and are seemingly on the verge of doing so again in this thread; you’re already quoting them.
I’m sure someone has probably already said as much, only better and earlier in this thread, and in all honesty I’ve only really skimmed it, but…
It seems to me that within the traditional concepts of a Christian Heaven and Hell(as I do not know enough of any other religion to speak on’em), either there is no free will in Heaven, or it is all Hell. As well, could it truly even be Heaven if there is no free will?
What I mean is, when you die and go to Heaven either you’re free will is taken, along with your memories of your past life, and you are kept in a blissful ignorance. You then spend an eternity of being a content drone. Doesn’t sound like the most appealing thing to strive for.
Or, you go to Heaven and have free will, thoughts, and memories, but because of these you realize how lonely and empty it is due to the strict entrance rules. How blissful could Heaven be with the knowledge of good people and loved ones suffering for an eternity?
As long as there is a Hell, Heaven can’t be. The only way I could see having both a true Heaven and Hell(again in a traditional Christian sense) is if you personally were able to choose who goes where, but given the rules of the game, this is blasphemous and not possible.
FWIW, my personal ideas/beliefs are far different from the traditional Christian afterlife I was talking about earlier in this post, for mostly those reasons. I hope I am making some sort of sense (probably not). I admit I don’t really have proper GD-chops, and today especially, I am having trouble putting thoughts to words. That said, I’m open to any and all critique.