Christians - Is there free will in heaven?

Great Debates
121

[QUOTE=tds1273]
I’m sure someone has probably already said as much, only better and earlier in this thread, and in all honesty I’ve only really skimmed it, but…

It seems to me that within the traditional concepts of a Christian Heaven and Hell(as I do not know enough of any other religion to speak on’em), either there is no free will in Heaven, or it is all Hell. As well, could it truly even be Heaven if there is no free will?

What I mean is, when you die and go to Heaven either you’re free will is taken, along with your memories of your past life, and you are kept in a blissful ignorance. You then spend an eternity of being a content drone. Doesn’t sound like the most appealing thing to strive for.
Or, you go to Heaven and have free will, thoughts, and memories, but because of these you realize how lonely and empty it is due to the strict entrance rules. How blissful could Heaven be with the knowledge of good people and loved ones suffering for an eternity?

As long as there is a Hell, Heaven can’t be. The only way I could see having both a true Heaven and Hell(again in a traditional Christian sense) is if you personally were able to choose who goes where, but given the rules of the game, this is blasphemous and not possible.

FWIW, my personal ideas/beliefs are far different from the traditional Christian afterlife I was talking about earlier in this post, for mostly those reasons. I hope I am making some sort of sense (probably not). I admit I don’t really have proper GD-chops, and today especially, I am having trouble putting thoughts to words. That said, I’m open to any and all critique.
[/QUOTE]
Not religious, but if everyone in heaven agrees fully with God’s justice and therefore recognizes the same sins in their hellbound friends and family that drove god to punish them to begin with, their reaction would be the same as Gods (presumably: to hell with the scum, and never look back).

Alternatively, and to my mind more likely, God’s presence is like a drug; it makes you happy, at a basic level, no matter what. You may or may not remember that your friends and family are in eternal torment, but if you did, you just wouldn’t care.

122

[QUOTE=begbert2]
Right. I’m not convinced that there are millions of such people who all have had the same experience as each other. Generally speaking people’s religious experiences vary widely in the general and the specifics - even in the cases where they’re from the same religion.

I still think that you simply assume that some unreasonably large percentage of those who claim to have experienced god have had similar experiences to you. Not likely.

And I never said you posted many experiences in the same link; I said you posted many links in the same thread - which you certainly have done, and are seemingly on the verge of doing so again in this thread; you’re already quoting them.
[/QUOTE]

Here again, we are not talking about religious experiences, we are talking about people experiencing God. The large numbers come from statistics. It is estimated that over 12 million people have had NDEs in America alone. I think it is reasonable to assume at least a couple of million of these contained meeting God episodes.

123

[QUOTE=tds1273]
I’m sure someone has probably already said as much, only better and earlier in this thread, and in all honesty I’ve only really skimmed it, but…

It seems to me that within the traditional concepts of a Christian Heaven and Hell(as I do not know enough of any other religion to speak on’em), either there is no free will in Heaven, or it is all Hell. As well, could it truly even be Heaven if there is no free will?

What I mean is, when you die and go to Heaven either you’re free will is taken, along with your memories of your past life, and you are kept in a blissful ignorance. You then spend an eternity of being a content drone. Doesn’t sound like the most appealing thing to strive for.
Or, you go to Heaven and have free will, thoughts, and memories, but because of these you realize how lonely and empty it is due to the strict entrance rules. How blissful could Heaven be with the knowledge of good people and loved ones suffering for an eternity?

As long as there is a Hell, Heaven can’t be. The only way I could see having both a true Heaven and Hell(again in a traditional Christian sense) is if you personally were able to choose who goes where, but given the rules of the game, this is blasphemous and not possible.

FWIW, my personal ideas/beliefs are far different from the traditional Christian afterlife I was talking about earlier in this post, for mostly those reasons. I hope I am making some sort of sense (probably not). I admit I don’t really have proper GD-chops, and today especially, I am having trouble putting thoughts to words. That said, I’m open to any and all critique.
[/QUOTE]

I think you you did well. The concepts of Heaven and Hell do not explain the afterlife. It is far more than that. I would like to hear more of your beliefs. Always interested in new ideas.

124

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Here again, we are not talking about religious experiences, we are talking about people experiencing God. The large numbers come from statistics. It is estimated that over 12 million people have had NDEs in America alone. I think it is reasonable to assume at least a couple of million of these contained meeting God episodes.
[/QUOTE]
However, as I said, I have read accounts that you yourself have posted about supposed God encounters in NDEs, and they were not in agreement with one another in the general or the specifics, leading me to believe that the level of commonality between such God experiences tends to be low. And, to avoid hijacking this thread completely with the NDE thing, let’s just assume that I am totally bull-headed and cannot be convinced otherwise. Fair enough?

125

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Well, I can understand your position. But there are millions of people who have been in the presence of God, and each one of them thought it could never happen. They all had different ideas of what God was and how He acted in the world until they experienced being in the presence of Him. After that they are all together on God is unconditional love. There is no longer any doubt for them.

I could go into the logic of it all, but I won’t since there is so much skepticism. A healthy skepticism is not a bad thing unless you have been indoctrinated into religion or science. Both disciplines have extensive doctrines to keep their devotees loyal. It is much harder for them to grasp a world of consciousness, guided by a higher, wiser consciousness sometimes called God.
[/QUOTE]

It still boils down to the fact that they Just “believe” it was God
s presence, The feeling came from with in themselves, if it helps them to be a better happier person and do not try to force it on others than fine, to each his own.

Monavis
,

126

[QUOTE=begbert2]
However, as I said, I have read accounts that you yourself have posted about supposed God encounters in NDEs, and they were not in agreement with one another in the general or the specifics, leading me to believe that the level of commonality between such God experiences tends to be low. And, to avoid hijacking this thread completely with the NDE thing, let’s just assume that I am totally bull-headed and cannot be convinced otherwise. Fair enough?
[/QUOTE]

Cite!

127

[QUOTE=monavis]
It still boils down to the fact that they Just “believe” it was God
s presence, The feeling came from with in themselves, if it helps them to be a better happier person and do not try to force it on others than fine, to each his own.

Monavis
,
[/QUOTE]

Do you believe you had bacon for breakfast or do you know.

Personal experience is everything, without it you couldn’t find your way to work or school. Those that say personal experience is unreliable, let them try to do without it. They are only breaking down your confidence in yourself as all cults do.
They know they were in the presense of God because they experienced it.

Of course it came from within:

Without is the physical world.

128

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Cite!
[/QUOTE]
Considering your extensive record of providing opinion pieces, book reviews from people who already believe, and anonymous and unvarifiable stories whenever you are asked for cites, and considering your utter disdain for the scientific process, I just have to ask: What would you accept as a suitable cite?

129

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Cite!
[/QUOTE]
Unless he just jokingly and in good humor wants a cite for my bullheadedness and unconvinceability, in which case:

My past is my cite!

130

[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Considering your extensive record of providing opinion pieces, book reviews from people who already believe, and anonymous and unvarifiable stories whenever you are asked for cites, and considering your utter disdain for the scientific process, I just have to ask: What would you accept as a suitable cite?
[/QUOTE]

Pretty simple, he claims I have posted links where people have had an experience with God that don’t show that God is love. I asked him to show those links so I can see for myself. Not just any links, but links where the experiencer has been in the presence of God.

Not to hard to understand, now is it.

P.S. the only thing you got right was my distain for science doctrine. Same as my distain for religious doctrine. Truth only is needed.

131

[QUOTE=begbert2]
Unless he just jokingly and in good humor wants a cite for my bullheadedness and unconvinceability, in which case:

My past is my cite!
[/QUOTE]

OK, then my word is truth, now we are even.

132

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Pretty simple, he claims I have posted links where people have had an experience with God that don’t show that God is love. I asked him to show those links so I can see for myself. Not just any links, but links where the experiencer has been in the presence of God.
[/quote]
What the hell does that mean? Does the person quoted have to use that term? Does it mean that if a person makes the claim but doesn’t confirm that “God is Love” he/she wasn’t really in the presence of God?

About as easy as anything else you’ve posted, I guess.

Everyone else has doctrine, you have Truth. Got it.

133

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Pretty simple, he claims I have posted links where people have had an experience with God that don’t show that God is love. I asked him to show those links so I can see for myself. Not just any links, but links where the experiencer has been in the presence of God.

Not to hard to understand, now is it.
[/QUOTE]
You are mischaracterizing my position, which is pretty stupid since it’s right here in the thread above. But, I’ll repeat it for you: I have stated that the links you posted described experiences that were not in agreement with one another in the general or the specifics. This statement is absolutely true. (I’m not sure how to search through my past posts though, plus it would be a waste of my time since you clearly would misrepresent everything anyway, so you can search this board yourself and find your own damn cite.)

Jeez, I give you the benefit of the doubt, and you come back with this spewage. I wouldn’t take your unsupported word for anything.

134

[QUOTE=begbert2]
You are mischaracterizing my position, which is pretty stupid since it’s right here in the thread above. But, I’ll repeat it for you: I have stated that the links you posted described experiences that were not in agreement with one another in the general or the specifics. This statement is absolutely true. (I’m not sure how to search through my past posts though, plus it would be a waste of my time since you clearly would misrepresent everything anyway, so you can search this board yourself and find your own damn cite.)

Jeez, I give you the benefit of the doubt, and you come back with this spewage. I wouldn’t take your unsupported word for anything.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t want you to take my word for anything. I would like you to find out for yourself. I believe everyone should.

135

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I don’t want you to take my word for anything. I would like you to find out for yourself. I believe everyone should.
[/QUOTE]
I see. You make the fantastic claims, and we provide the cites.
How…creative.

136

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Do you believe you had bacon for breakfast or do you know.

Personal experience is everything, without it you couldn’t find your way to work or school. Those that say personal experience is unreliable, let them try to do without it. They are only breaking down your confidence in yourself as all cults do.
They know they were in the presense of God because they experienced it.

Of course it came from within:

Without is the physical world.
[/QUOTE]

I can prove if I have had bacon for breakfast or not,but it is something I know not just believe ,it is something that others would be able to see me eat it, not just take it on faith that I said I had or did not have bacon…a big difference! Since you cannot prove that God even exists but Just believe it, you cannot state in truth that you were in the presence of God. Something your brain created could make you think it was God but I have had things happen that can not be explained but I know that the human mind is capable of many things. I even had (years ago) a NDE experiance, but later I talked to my doctor and he told me I was not near death, so it was the effect of the anesthetic.

I was in the hospital a couple of months ago and after I was in the recovery room. I would see beautiful pictures(Like a slide show) I knew it was in my mind, and when I talked to my doctor she said it was an after effect of the anesthetic.

I think that if believing you were in the presence of God and it helps you, then that is not a bad thing. But it has little if anything to do with there being free will in heaven or on earth.

Monavis

137

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Pretty simple, he claims I have posted links where people have had an experience with God that don’t show that God is love. I asked him to show those links so I can see for myself. Not just any links, but links where the experiencer has been in the presence of God.

Not to hard to understand, now is it.

P.S. the only thing you got right was my distain for science doctrine. Same as my distain for religious doctrine. Truth only is needed.
[/QUOTE]

Since you have distain for science and religious doctrine,Why do you use the Bible quote"The Kingdom of God is with in you"? You base your beliefs then on what some human said, and I fail to see how that can be any more right over what a lot of dopers say that disagree with you.

Monavis

138

[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Yes, you do have Free Will in heaven. God is not standing over your shoulder “making” you do the good thing.

The reason he doesn’t have to is because at that time, we will be fully aware of the true nature of good, God, life, the universe, and everything. We will know exactly what we are intended for, why we are meant for it, and how we will do it. By virtue of having arrived at that point, we will be the kind of people who have agreed that our rebellious spirit is innately wrong, and that we recognize and follow God’s supreme, divine, holy and perfect law.
[/quote]
So heaven is a lot like North Korea, without all the starving. Now I understand why it was such a sacrifice for Christ to go there as payment for our sins. This Christian theology is starting to come together for me.

So human souls in heaven have free will, but God does not. Got it.

139

[QUOTE=monavis]
I can prove if I have had bacon for breakfast or not,but it is something I know not just believe ,it is something that others would be able to see me eat it, not just take it on faith that I said I had or did not have bacon…a big difference! Since you cannot prove that God even exists but Just believe it, you cannot state in truth that you were in the presence of God. Something your brain created could make you think it was God but I have had things happen that can not be explained but I know that the human mind is capable of many things. I even had (years ago) a NDE experiance, but later I talked to my doctor and he told me I was not near death, so it was the effect of the anesthetic.

I was in the hospital a couple of months ago and after I was in the recovery room. I would see beautiful pictures(Like a slide show) I knew it was in my mind, and when I talked to my doctor she said it was an after effect of the anesthetic.

I think that if believing you were in the presence of God and it helps you, then that is not a bad thing. But it has little if anything to do with there being free will in heaven or on earth.

Monavis
[/QUOTE]

Most experiencers do not have anesthetic, yet know they are in the presence of God. There is no need to prove it to anyone, a person knows when they experience God.

140

[QUOTE=monavis]
Since you have distain for science and religious doctrine,Why do you use the Bible quote"The Kingdom of God is with in you"? You base your beliefs then on what some human said, and I fail to see how that can be any more right over what a lot of dopers say that disagree with you.

Monavis
[/QUOTE]

Knowledge is being able to discern between reading the Bible, and not being religious. The difference between truth and doctrine, religious and spiritual, these are the things that knowledge consists of.